Panning/Effects for Vocals

[haytrain]

I'm brand new to the game here. Do most of you pan your vocals a bit to one side or the other, or keep them dead center? Where's a "standard" place to start with panning and effects (chorus, reverb, EQ, whatever) with a vocal track? Is there an easy answer to this question?

 

[witzendoz]

I would almost always have the main vocal in the centre. If the main vocal was double tracked I may pan this left and right to a desired amount for a wide effect.

If you have a single vocal track and you want it to sound bigger, leave it in the centre and use a stereo effects.

Backing vocals I pan depending on how many and what they are singing, this helps to separate the backing vocal a bit to help hear the individual parts.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[miroslav]

Vocals and leads...dead center.

Even if the FX and what not are panned L/R...I always like the main vocal/lead track dead center.

I also will pan all the other elements L/R at various degrees...that way, I leave a small "window" (11:30-12:30) reserved mainly for the vocals and leads.
Of course...even your L/R panned elements will also come through the center at various but lesser amounts, so it won't sound "empty" in the center when there are no vocals/leads...unless you were to pan everything else hard L/R...but I only pan maybe one or two things hard L/R....most other stuff is "fanned out" between the hard L/R and the 11:30-12:30 positions.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Yeah, vocals are panned center most of the time, but I would not consider that as anything near a rock solid rule; there are so many valid exceptions that I never assume vocals down the middle.

Songs where there is a strong call-and-response element or hand-off between vocals and backup/accompaniment vocals or instrument leads such as lead git or keyboard can often benefit from panning the call a little (e.g. 30-50%) one side and the response or showcase track equally to the other side.

Also, an arrangement where there may be a lot of sonic conflict between the vocal and accompaniment track when it's not a hand-off/showcase situation can call for a separation of the two tracks via panning. A typical example might be a singer self-accompanying on piano or acoustic guitar.

But most important I think, haytrain, is that you start early with the understanding that the best way to attack any song production is in the pre-production, before you even hit record. One of the first steps here is to work out the arrangement of the song, and then mentally run that arrangement through your head - i.e. imagine listening to it - and figure out what will sound good or sound cool to you. Do you really want the vocal and the vocal sitting in the middle, or you you wnat to move it to balance something else out, etc.? Don't worry about what everybody else is doing, just think about what picture YOU want to paint with your music.

G.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah, vocals are panned center most of the time, but I would not consider that as anything near a rock solid rule; there are so many valid exceptions that I never assume vocals down the middle.

So true....no absolute rules.

Though I'm sure you will agree...for a newbie, it may be best to start off with some initial "rules"...better yet, basic SOPs...that way there is less chance of screwing things up and getting lost in the whole process.

I like to occasionally deviate from the "standard" dead-center approach if the song/music calls for it...but 9-out-of-10 times I'll still go for "basics", and then I know I can't miss when the vox/leads sit up the middle!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Though I'm sure you will agree...for a newbie, it may be best to start off with some initial "rules"...better yet, basic SOPs...that way there is less chance of screwing things up and getting lost in the whole process.

Respectfully, I see advising a newb to get used to following a canned recipe as setting a bad precedent in general.

I'd have to repeat myself in that the only SOP "guideline" I recommend is to treat panning as a choreography that is at least suggested, if not quite dictated, by the composition and arrangement, and that the newb should start out of the gate by learning to make NO assumptions on panning, and that they mentally imagine and figure out the panning to suit the arrangement. This is what we do when we work out the arrangement (hopefully), and I see no reason to recommend stopping that strategy when working out the panning.

I see now that there's a new thread in this forum asking about panning in general. This would have to be my identical answer to that thread. Especially if I have no bass guitar in my mix .

G.

 

[Seafroggys]

I am recording my friend, she sings and plays accordian. Now everything is panned center, giving a, well, mono sound. I don't like it, but I can't really pan anything without screwing with the sonic balance.

I have noticed on many recordings that on the lead vocal, they through on a very fast delay, pan the source one way and the delay the other way. Its impossible to hear this on speakers, you can only notice it on headphones, but its a cool effect that can make your vocals take up space while keeping them centered.

 

[miroslav]

Respectfully, I see advising a newb to get used to following a canned recipe as setting a bad precedent in general.

I'm not sure where you're reading that in my post?

My point was that when you're mixing for the first time...start with the recipe that seems to work for about 90% of Pop/Rock music.
Once you understand what is going on with panning and how it can be used to set the vibe and balance of a song, then feel free to deviate from that to taste. That's not really saying "get use to following a canned recipe"....is it?

I'm certainly not arguing against your point about not always following rules...I agreed with you.
I just feel that newbies would benefit from starting out simple and following some basic structure and approaches until they get their feet wet...that's all.
It's that whole learn-to-walk-before-you-can-run thing.

Besides…I really don’t think newbies are able to grasp the deeper “paint your picture” concepts right out of the gate, if they are still uncertain about basics…don’t you agree?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

My point was that when you're mixing for the first time...start with the recipe that seems to work for about 90% of Pop/Rock music.
...
That's not really saying "get use to following a canned recipe"....is it?

It seems to me that starting somebody off on an arbitrary recipe is getting them used to the idea of using an arbitrary recipe .

Putting aside my disagreement with your 90% figure, along with the automatic assumption that the OP is mixing pop/rock, I look at the whole issue this way: mixing is the process of applying the arrangement to the recording. Any idea of applying a recipe/standard to the panning basically assumes that mixing is independent of the arrangement, and is therefore teaching exactly the opposite idea.

Walk before running, sure, but I'm not going to walk anyone in the direction of thinking that mixing is independent of the content of the song. Best IMHO to insinuate the concept from the beginning that mixing is an artistic process that is an extension of their song's content and arrangement. How can that possibly be too difficult for a musician or a music advocate to understand? It seems to me to be about as basic as one can get .

G.

 

[miroslav]

It seems to me that starting somebody off on an arbitrary recipe is getting them used to the idea of using an arbitrary recipe .

Only if they have no imagination to take them beyond what they already know.

Besides...the OP specifically asked for a "standard" and an "easy" answer.
I think "dead center" covers both.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Besides...the OP specifically asked for a "standard" and an "easy" answer.

There are a thousand cases on these boards where someone asks a question for which there is no answer of the type they are looking for, especially when they are looking for an "easy" - as in black and white, do exactly this - answer. There is no standard "map" for mixing vocals, bass, guitar, dulcimer or didgeridoo. That's about as easy and as true of an answer as you can get.

Especially if the guy is not doing the same kind of music you are. But no, nobody bothered asking the guy. Everybody assumes two things; that everybody else is doing the same music they are, and that everybody wants to sound exactly like everyone else.

If that's the case, then what's the point? We might a well all just hang up our guitars and microphones, because it's all already been done.

I'm curious; do these kind of questions come up in the songwriter's forum? "I want a professional-sounding song. What should my lyrics be?" or "I want a professional-sounding song. What chord progression should I use?" Asking where to put tracks in a mix is no different than those questions.

G.

 

[miroslav]

Glen...mi amigo...I think you are dissecting this WAY too fine, and reading a lot in-between the lines.

You know...when first time working in a pro studio as an intern, you pick up a mic and ask the engineer "Where do you want me to place it?"...he may just tell you, "Place it there.", without always giving a 20 minute explanation/dissertation of the theory behind his choice…and why that’s the best approach.
Again...my main point is that a newbie can be easily overloaded with TOO MUCH INFO...and I have to say, I've seen it too many times on forums where a newbie is almost pummeled with info by the more veteran studio rats (I've done it at times too) in an effort to give the newbie the BIG PICTURE...all at once.
We always mean well, but I think a simple question at times can benefit from a simple answer…even if it may not be the complete, broader answer.
Newbies often can't pull back far enough to focus in on the big picture...so sometimes you tell 'em "Put the mic there" (or pan the leads dead center) just to get them going.
I'm really not sure why you keep insisting that somehow that is telling them to just "get use to using canned recipes"...

C'mon Glen...we both know that's not the case...not to mention yet one more time, we both also told him that it's NOT an absolute rule.
So I think (?) that the OP understands what we are saying (though he hasn't responded back since he asked the question).
He asked for a good place to start...IMHO...dead center is that place...YMMV.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm really not sure why you keep insisting that somehow that is telling them to just "get use to using canned recipes"...

C'mon Glen...we both know that's not the case...

Just wait until you've been here for four years or more and you get a true feeling for the full scope of misunderstanding among newbs that everything is done by canned recipe. I mean EVERYTHING. And most of this come from a reinforcement of the idea from their newb peers who think the same way.

But even beside that, miro, I keep asking, and have yet to hear an answer: what is so overwhelming and complex about the idea that the mix is an extension of the arrangement, and therefore should be treated as the studio part of the arrangement? To me that is a far simpler, elegant and easy to understand, and - oh yeah - CORRECT answer than to say, "OK, you should pan this here, but pan that there, double this and split it wide, except if you want that, then you want to do this, blah blah blah." Especially when you don't even know what his composition, arrangement, or available tracks even are.

Your analogy about placing a mic as an intern or AE is fallacious. The mentor has already got things figured out and can already answer all those questions. Not to mention the mentor engineer is the guy in charge of the mix.

A truer analogy would be if the AE came on this forum and asked us instead of asking his mentor engineer, "I want a pro sound, how should I place my mike?" with no other information whatsoever provided. Tell me, miro, how would you answer that exact question? The first thought that would cross your mind would probably be that you know where you'd *like* me to stick my mic .

Mix to the arrangement. Mix to how it sounds in your head. What's so doggone hard or overwhelming about that?

It's only the most basic and natural and effective answer there is.

G.

 

[miroslav]

I keep asking, and have yet to hear an answer: what is so overwhelming and complex about the idea that the mix is an extension of the arrangement, and therefore should be treated as the studio part of the arrangement? To me that is a far simpler, elegant and easy to understand, and - oh yeah - CORRECT answer ....

For you....for me...for some other guys here....yup, that's a good answer, we understand that...and that's how I mix, there's no canned recipes.
Not sure why you keep explainging that to me...I'm not arguing against that!

Tell most newbies "mix to the arrangement"...and I'll bet $5 they'll go "OK...but how should I do that?"

 

[Greg_L]

miroslav is right.

N00bs should stick to some tried and true methods until they start to understand where experimentation will take them. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Get them asking "how" instead of "what" and you finally have them asking sensible questions that actually have useful answers that will actually help them.

And I'll double your bet that everybody who asks that question already has an idea in their head of what they want their mix to sound like. I don't mean crap like, "I want it to sound like that song those guys did on that album"; I mean they actually have a mental image in their head of what thy would hear if they played it once it's done.

They may not yet have actually *listened* to that image and actually analyzed it to the detail of figuring out the panning, but all they gotta do is sit back and *imagine it* and it will come.

If you can make music, you can do this. If you can write music, you already do it anyway. It's a simple answer, it's not hard to do, and its an answer that will be 100% right 100% of the time, now as a newb and later as an experienced engineer..

But for chrissakes, people; I have probably a good 1 out of 3 (if not more) commercially recorded songs - most of them rock/pop related - in my personal playlist for which the typical answer on this board of how to pan tracks simply does not apply.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

there's no canned recipes.

Whaddayamean there are no canned recipes?

You mean I've been doing this wrong all this time? No wonder everything I do sounds like shit! You mean all those nice presets in my EQ and compressor plugins are a waste? I am sooo confused.

I thought everything sounded good when you turned things up to 11

 

[noisewreck]

Plus, analog panning sounds so much better than digital panning

 

[miroslav]

But for chrissakes, people; I have probably a good 1 out of 3 (if not more) commercially recorded songs - most of them rock/pop related - in my personal playlist for which the typical answer on this board of how to pan tracks simply does not apply.

Well...you've gone and totally expanded the focus of the original question to talking about mixing/panning of all tracks instead of just the lead vocal.

The original question was:

Where's a "standard" place to start with panning and effects (chorus, reverb, EQ, whatever) with a vocal track? Is there an easy answer to this question?

I still say that the majority of Rock/Pop mixes (not counting the early 60s when they were trying to figure it all out) pan vocals pretty much dead-center, and that's what he was asking basically...if there was some standard starting point for panning lead vocals (he wasn't asking about all the tracks).
YES…the easy answer that he wanted for a “starting point” that IS as close to a "standard" as you can get is to pan the lead vocal...dead-center.
You wanna call that a "canned recipe", that's fine...but it sure works most of the time and sounds the most “correct” most of the time with most mixes...
....not all the time, and it's not an absolute rule (no one said that).
That's all the OP is asking...what is the starting point, but you are mostly talking about the end-point of the mixing process...that tracks don't need to always end up panned the same way using some canned recipe.
No argument there, Glen.

Out of the last 20 songs anyone here mixed…can you respond and tell us where you panned the lead vocal?
Most every one of mine are dead-center.

And whether anyone here wants to actually admit it or not…we ALL use “canned recipes” in the studio ALL the time….we just call them “techniques”!

 

[Greg_L]

Well...you've gone and totally expanded the focus of the original question to talking about mixing/panning of all tracks instead of just the lead vocal.

The original question was:



I still say that the majority of Rock/Pop mixes (not counting the early 60s when they were trying to figure it all out) pan vocals pretty much dead-center, and that's what he was asking basically...if there was some standard starting point for panning lead vocals (he wasn't asking about all the tracks).
YES…the easy answer that he wanted for a “starting point” that IS as close to a "standard" as you can get is to pan the lead vocal...dead-center.
You wanna call that a "canned recipe", that's fine...but it sure works most of the time and sounds the most “correct” most of the time with most mixes...
....not all the time, and it's not an absolute rule (no one said that).
That's all the OP is asking...what is the starting point, but you are mostly talking about the end-point of the mixing process...that tracks don't need to always end up panned the same way using some canned recipe.
No argument there, Glen.

Out of the last 20 songs anyone here mixed…can you respond and tell us where you panned the lead vocal?
Most every one of mine are dead-center.

And whether anyone here wants to actually admit it or not…we ALL use “canned recipes” in the studio ALL the time….we just call them “techniques”!

FTW + 10 gay characters