Ozone question for "Massive Master"

[bunt]

Here's your quote -

"Take Ozone - Very cool tool if you know exactly what you're looking for - but so easily abused, and so much rope to hang yourself with, that even experienced engineers can get carried away with it if they're not careful. I know a few guys who use it for dithering, a guy who uses the EQ. I still have no idea what a "Mastering Reverb" is. "

wow.. I was thinking about buying Ozone, and for $200 it seemed really powerful & friendly & easy to use... but I've only used the chopped down version that you get with Sony Soundforge (9.0e), so I was looking to improve on that.

Are you saying that in the hands of an amateur (like me) this is dangerous stuff?
Or are you just saying that with people's tendencies towards heavy handedness, this allows them to be over zealoused really easily? I'm just not sure what you meant by your post, so now I'm hedging a bit on my purchase

 

[legionserial]

I'm not Massive Mastering....but, what specifically did you want to use Ozone for?

 

[Massive Master]

Are you saying that in the hands of an amateur (like me) this is dangerous stuff?
Or are you just saying that with people's tendencies towards heavy handedness, this allows them to be over zealoused really easily? I'm just not sure what you meant by your post, so now I'm hedging a bit on my purchase

It's a rough one... I can tell you that I've heard far more mixes hopelessly thrashed by Ozone than actually helped by Ozone. One of the better mixing engineers I work with regularly sends me "Ozoned" files along with his unprocessed files so I can hear "what he was thinking about" -- I've yet to hear one that actually sounded better. Out of dozens and dozens (probably hundreds) of mixes I've done for him. And almost every time, he ends up putting my finals up with his (OZ'd) finals to A/B. And almost every time, he calls up, frustrated - asking me why he's making such obviously bad decisions.

And I really can't tell him why. Certainly one issue is that they're his mixes. He's already done what they asked him to do. And although when they're done here they sound appreciably "different" (for lack of a better term) they're different in 1/4 & 1/2dB adjustments here, and there, and over there, and around there. Not 3 & 4dB freakiness, not pulling the low end out of phase, not maul-the-band compression where it's not needed, etc. He's hearing "different" and "louder" and equating it with "better" - which is common when you're messing with mixes you're intimately familiar with.

That all said - I'm a "do what the mix is asking me to do" person. Normally, I'm not even listening when I set up a chain when I'm working. I listen, I think through a chain, I set it up, I hit play again. Hopefully, when the mix is playing through the chain, it's not telling me anything anymore. If it is, I tweak what I've already done and move on to the next mix. The short story there is that I don't advocate the use of presets in any way. I don't need or want a plugin's suggestion when I'm working. Presets are wonderful to mess with a plug to learn the plug. Then dump 'em. I know a lot of people who read down a list of presets (including this particular engineer in this case) and use it as a 'starting point' of sorts. That's just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. And most presets aren't very subtle - You rarely see a preset called ".5dB dip at 2.75kHz" or "1dB of slow, low ratio compression on the mono information only" -- And when it comes down to it - and I'll include a disclaimer that I'm not "Ozone expert" - When I try to do what the mix is asking me to do with Ozone, I fail. It just isn't doing what I want it to do / doesn't sound like I want it to sound.

But typically, I don't have that issue with "regular" stock plugs. I've had to do quick "ITB" projects using nothing but the stock plugs in Reaper without issue. I'd gladly use the ITB processing in Samplitude over just about any 'all-in-one' plug out there.

Long story short? Use what you know, know what you use, do what the mix tells you to do. Don't experiment. Experimentation is fine for the sake of experimentation.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I'm an occaisional Ozone user myself.
It has it's place although I would never use it on a final mix down because that's what guys like massive are for

Personally I have had use for it on sub groups, and use it very sparingly (ie drums grouped or strings grouped etc)
I've never found a need for the master reverb either.
EQ maybe a tiny bit over the whole sub mix if it really needs it after all the tweaks at the individual track level don't get it sounding 100% right
Multiband Compressor I try to steer away from and fix the individual instruments but if the sub mix needs it, it seems like a fairly transparent compressor that doesn't add a lot of flavor in digital mode (since I should have got the coloration I wanted at the individual track level) and since I don't have another "maul the band compressor" this is it for me
Stereo Widener I've found occaisional use for it to add a little sparkle at higher frequency range. Needs to be used very, very conservatively or you run the risk of adding a whole headache of phase cancellation issues
Harmonic Exciter Haven't heard a need for it yet
Volume Maximiser/Limiter I have used this to raise overall levels of the mix when I want to post on a forum like this or put a work in progress on my website. It works OK but once again when I want to put a whole group of songs into an album I would use someone like massive to handle the final compression/limiting and level raising.
Dither Algorithms Supposed to be pretty good although dither is one of those touchy subjects as to whether it makes any difference at all in anything other than an entirely uniform sine wave. Many experts say the inherent variety and noise within a dynamic mix take care of the dither anyway. Personally I've never been able to hear a difference.

I'm no expert but I have been using this plug for about 8 months now so can pass on some amateur observations

 

[Massive Master]

Dither Algorithms Supposed to be pretty good although dither is one of those touchy subjects as to whether it makes any difference at all in anything other than an entirely uniform sine wave. Many experts say the inherent variety and noise within a dynamic mix take care of the dither anyway. Personally I've never been able to hear a difference.

I have a more or less "default" dither I tend to use (one of very few "default" anythings I use) that I switched for an experimental thing a few months ago.

I probably had it on that other setting for three weeks before I noticed - while working on a classical recording with dynamics like freaking Bolero. That's what it took to actually notice that it wasn't my usual dither.

 

[bunt]

First things first.. Thanks for the respectful and detailed answers! Being a newb to a forum like this is kinda like being a pre-school kid. You have all this enthusiasm & tons of questions and the knowledgable folks slam the sh_t out of you for not knowing things, so then you kind of slink away and poke & hope for hours... days.. years..

So.. legionserial:
I'm not trying to make records to sell or anything like that. For lack of a better term, I'm a hobbyist.. that said, I figure it's understood that even tho I don't aspire to be a pro, my ears are no different than a professionals ears in that it grates on me to hear an inspired performance butchered by a bad recording job. With that in mind I cobbled together a little (very little) studio of sorts in my basement.
I also know that I break a lot of rules such as mastering my own mix.. BUT:
I can play... so I lay down tracks on a 788. (eek!) Drums, bass, piano & keys, guitars, mandolins, violin, an occasional brass horn and vocals. After I create this mess, I mix it down as best I can, but if I just slap that into a player, it sounds like a multi-tracked collection of individual pieces of a total tune... not a comprehensive piece, so I got some (always cheap - ha) mastering software, which really opens up a bunch of wonderful possibilities for refinement. I want to use Ozone for that purpose. Small amounts of multiband compression, sometimes a bit of overall EQ and some limiting. I'm just trying to smooth things out and add a little sparkle.

Massive Master & Bristol Posse: Great answers, thanks. Some of the stuff you mention makes me realize how little I know about mastering... and maybe hits home as a lesson on my own laziness, or being in a hurry all the time trying to make recordings in little snippets of time working around a day job, family, house & lawns & all that.. but Here's my experience with the scaled down version of Ozone I mentioned:

I'm totally with you on presets. Presets to the audio software I've tried are so far from subtle it's ridiculous. I figure the presets are just a way of showing users how exaggerated a plug can get, but are never really intended to be used.. like maybe running a car with the throttle wide open while the brakes are engaged..

Anywaz, I don't/wouldn't use the reverb feature because I can't bear to reverb the reverb already in the mix, and I can't imagine having reverb on a bass or across the whole lineup of instruments. This may be because I don't know "how" to use this properly. not sure..

Dither: My equipment is fairly low-end, altho not the lowest of ends.. heh.. there's plenty of noise lurking around my recordings.. but still, I read a lot, and most of my reading steers to dither, so I decided to use this even tho I can't really discern exactly what benefit it's giving me in my particular situation. I randomly chose 'triangular'.. damned if I know why..

Volume Maximizer, Limit - This feature changed/colored the sound so much that I stopped using it in the scaled down version I have. I hear it's better in the full Ozone suite.

Stereo Widener: don't have it in my version.. have tried some free plugs.. thought it was fake sounding

Exciter: Not on my version. I don't really like messing with the tones I go after in my mix. Might be good for my vocals tho cause I have a (too) deep voice that really challenges the LDCs that I have

Multiband Compressor: Now we're talkin'. This is where I see a huge benefit, and this is my primary reason for wanting Ozone.

EQ: This is also beneficial sometimes. Mostly for the live recordings I make of my band... typically I add a little air and cut a little midrange.. like maybe -2db or so in the 800-1500 Hz range... probably because our sound guy uses sm58 betas... I hate those, btw... they really sound honk-y (to me).
I don't use the EQ too much on my multi-tracked stuff. I do that in the mix as best I can, but occasionally I tweak it. I've heard that if you don't change the EQ by at least 3db it won't be heard... yet I notice a 0.25 db drop to the mids like it's jumping out and screaming... go figure...

Okay, I guess that's about it. Thanks very much for your help. If there is something better than Ozone in this price range I'd really appreciate your suggestions.

Side note: I used to try to master my stuff with my (again cheap) hardware compressors & EQ, etc... but I got a lot of noise, so the software works better in my particular case

 

[Erockrazor]

Multiband Compressor: Now we're talkin'. This is where I see a huge benefit, and this is my primary reason for wanting Ozone.

Hey, I'm no master of mastering. In fact, the way you want to use Ozone would typically be classified as mixing.

I'm not sure what DAW you're running but there are a wealth of free plug ins out there. I sometimes use this multi-band compressor VST http://www.kvraudio.com/get/950.html

As for EQ and limiters, there is a wealth of these for free on the internet. I'm not exactly saying don't get Ozone. Just saying you have options... and options, as a hobbyist, that can save you 200 bucks.

Use these on individual tracks so you can use them wisely. The change that these effects can have on the master fader will be very exaggerated. It may sound nice ATM but you might be ruining parts of your mix that you didn't intend. Just be careful!

Good luck buddy, Eric

 

[Massive Master]

Multiband Compressor: Now we're talkin'. This is where I see a huge benefit, and this is my primary reason for wanting Ozone.

Make you primary purpose finding out why you feel the need to subject your mixes to multi-band compression first. Then you'll probably find that you don't like it anyway. No matter what the marketing guys say, it's rather rarely actually used in the mastering phase (unless the mix is so screwed up that nothing else wil help it). On your own mixes? I can't think of a single scenario.

 

[bunt]

way you want to use Ozone would typically be classified as mixing.

Eric - hmm.. I see your point.
Thanks for the link to the freebies. I'll check em out

John-
"Make you primary purpose finding out why you feel the need to subject your mixes to multi-band compression first."

O man you're gonna make me think about this aren't you?! I feel it... I hear it... but I can't articulate it, so I figure that's your whole point.

 

[bunt]

...also realizing my terminology sucks! When I said "Mastering Software" I should have said "Audio Editor", (I think) which, btw, is Sony Soundforge 9.0e.