Over compressing/the loudness war

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Popular music sounds worse every year. We are in a post-HiFi age of incompetence. The loudness war has been settled but amateurs vastly outnumber those that know what they’re doing.

Well...who is "controlling" popular music these days? THat will answer your question of the diminishing quality. It makes a lot more sense than, people are mixing too loud, so music is dead (I mean, come on that IS really over dramatic.
 
Well...who is "controlling" popular music these days? THat will answer your question of the diminishing quality. It makes a lot more sense than, people are mixing too loud, so music is dead (I mean, come on that IS really over dramatic.


Gotta link? :cool:

You’re missing the core of the loudness issue. It’s all about what happens sonically to music when it’s abused this way, not a simple matter of it just being louder. “Loudness war” is just a popular term for much more complex mastering considerations.

I don’t think it means what you thing it means. :(
 

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Perhaps if they actually developed their own sound instead of just trying to clone someone else, they might actually be able to get a contract and a budget to go to a Big House and have things done properly so they *can* sound as loud as their favorite band. And maybe then the overall quality of the music scene will start improving again.

And perhaps if we as engineers actually did the second half of our jobs by actually acting as the experts we pretend to be, and explained the situation to them and actually acted as consultants and*advised them to do the right thing* before they just make a rash decision, we'd discover that everybody would be better off in the long run and the short run. They may still say, "I don't care, I want it screamin'." In that case we're no worse off than we were before; we still give 'em the pancake. It doesn't hurt to at least fulfill our obligation to the client in that regard, rather than just shut our mouths and take the money, and then come on here and complain about it.

But you'd be surprised how many, when having things explained to them, respond by saying that they just "assumed" this or "didn't realize" that, and wind up thanking us for steering them straight, or for at least educating them even if they don't change their mind. It's good for business to fulfill that obligation to the client. They will have that much more respect for us, and regardless of whether they take our advice this time or not, will be more likely to come back to us for advice - and for work - the next time.

We all want to sound like professionals, but we don't act like them. Instead of being a good general practitioner and actually managing our client's sonic health, we just play Dr. Feelgood and feed them prescription slips like potato chips for whatever they ask for without question. Then we come on here and complain about how everybody is becoming a drug addict.

G.

You know glen...I can't actually disagree much with you at all. I can more easily understand where you're coming from from your last post...didn't agree with the closing statement at all, as it also contradicted what you were talking about. It's entirely subjective. Someone over here likes slasher movies someone over there likes romantic comedies...neither is better or worse, it just depends on the person, and their tastes.

Develop your own sound, that's my mantra. Amen x 100. THAT is what is killing music more than anything. Nobody will dare to be original, or different. Everyone follows every trend that comes along, and subscribe to the same cliches (not that EXPLOITING cliches isn't great fun, but relying on them??? hmmm no) That's kind of part of my point with the loudness thing. That's part of my sound. I know that people generally like the stuff I do, from the feedback I tend to get. Actually, in the audio industry right now it is quite trendy to be militantly anti-loudness. It's all over the trade magazines, all of the internet forums. It's at the edge of every engineer's lips. I'm not saying you are just following a trend, but the trend is there. (Nothing wrong with exploiting trends as well.. but I tend to exploit trends and cliches that haven't been fashionable for a long time..and note: exploit is very different than rely on...) WIth my sound, it just HAPPENS to sometimes look like a brick. I don't go for it. I have no desire to make my stuff loud, quiet, abrasive or pleasent. It just has to perpetuate the song, that's the #1 most important thing.

Regarding your last post that was toward me. Knowing proper gain staging and choosing to ignore it are two different animals entirely. I choose to follow it when it helps me and ignore it when it helps me to ignore it. I don't overdrive my interface or pre-amp because I don't think they have a good sound when done so (there are some pre-amps out there that sound pretty sweet really driven tho.... usually more of the analog variety) All of my recordings sound pristine and actually at very typical levels for recording good digital audio... it's when it gets into logic that I start to play with things a bit. If you've used later versions of logic, you might see that overdriving the channel strips actually sounds..REALLY good for certain things such as drums. There is a really aggressive sounding soft clipping algorithm. The master channel doesn't sound very good overdriven, though, which is why some bits of limiting on the master channel is really nice. Also...check out PSP Vintage Warmer some time. You might be amazed at what can be done with it. That contributes A LOT to the "square wave" mixes that I can tend to get some times.

Anyway, I do agree with what you're saying. I think if you see other posts I've done you'll see that I'm huge on taking some license artistically, and aurally in projects I work on. If the "band" knew exactly how to get the right result, why the hell would they be paying me? If someone wanted an inappropriate mix (which can include overly compressed, depending on the song) I'd not go for it, and I'd explain to them every reason why it's a bad idea.

Anyway, I don't actually hear very often people asking for "loud mixes" really. Maybe it's the people I've been working with, but that conversation doesn't tend to come up as much as it used to (it used to come up constantly)

Again I can't totally disagree with what you're saying... it's just that... there are exceptions to every rule, and especially with my primary project, there happens to be A LOT of exceptions to almost every rule out there lol.
 
Gotta link? :cool:

You’re missing the core of the loudness issue. It’s all about what happens sonically to music when it’s abused this way, not a simple matter of it just being louder. “Loudness war” is just a popular term for much more complex mastering considerations.

I don’t think it means what you thing it means. :(

A link to what? Who's controlling music? Do I really need to spell that out?

Carefully structured abuse can run full circle and become musical again, and not just in the recording process, compositionally too. In fact, most leaps forward in music history have been perpetrated by some very fundamental rule being thrown through the meat grinder and selectively exploited to the whim of the artist.

For instance...ROCK and ROLL, JAZZ, PUNK, HEAVY METAL, BLUES... and many many more (said with a booming voice over artist voice) None of these would exist if someone hadn't decided to ignore all the rules, then break them with a vengeance.

What happened sonically when early distorted guitars started to appear on albums... when stereo was first invented. It's pretty fatiquing listening to some of these early stereo recordings like...drums all the way on the left, bass all the way on the right and everything else center or something, esp in headphones... but it was another important step in recording, and music in general.

I hear these constant laments. Nobody is being original. Everything sounds the same. Music is so boring. Well ... is it a wonder? Everyone is so obsessed with the "right way to do things" that they forget to actually grow in their craft, and do something different.

Does it sound traditionally "pleasant?" Well, it can, but that's besides the point. It doesn't have to be pleasant. Just like what someone said earlier in this post, referring to the earlier reactions to rock n roll. Music is supposed to be pleasant? Is art even supposed to be solely pleasant? I am very surprised from time to time when running into these people who have centered their entire lives around music who actually believe this principal. It's something I expect out of some average Joe with little interest in music, other than something to listen to when in Rush hour and something to hum to when it's played in the super market. Those are the kind of people who I associate that kind of "music should only be pleasant and non intrusive" mentality.

Then... the laments...music sucks music sucks. Well, maybe music is filled with people who are willing to make bland un-offensive, un-intrusive, pleasant music for the average consumer who doesn't give a flying hoo haw about music in the first place. Something like punk would NEVER happen today. Everyone is too obsessed with convention, and rules. Everyone is too afraid to differ from the norm. Maybe that's why we haven't continued on the typical 10 year cycle of the 20th century musical culture. There aren't enough people out there this time around who are willing to try something new. What's killing music is this fear of experimentation...what if it sounds bad? What if I don't get signed? What if I don't look like Mr. God of audio because I bucked the popular trends of the day? Me? I don't give a fuck if every single engineer on the planet says one thing...I'm going to do things how best suit the art I am working on, and if that means making it sound "unpleasant" to accomplish that, then who the fuck cares...

as I always say, we in the audio community tend to put emphasis on the entirely wrong aspects of our craft. What's most important to us matters the least in the grand scheme of things.
 
Gotta link? :D

sure, I can show you music that I personally find very invigorating, exciting, fresh, and original... but who's to say you would feel the same way. It's subjective.

If you want links, I'll be happy to give them, but I'm not convinced that you're not one of the typical "good ole days" analog engineer. It's like a cult... no matter what comes out, it's horrible, because it's not the way it was done in "the good ole days" Kind of similar to the "they don't make them like they used to", or the old favourite "Kids these days... when I was their age things were so different" (p.s. get one of those people considerably drunk and hear them tell all of the stories of the kind of shit they got up to... in some cases, it's much more extreme than a kid would get away with nowadays... kids are forced into being much more "in line" than ever before......)
 
What's most important to us matters the least in the grand scheme of things.

Spare me! That non-argument is used no matter what the issue. Thus nothing is EVER thoroughly examined on its own merits in these threads. The conclusion is there's always some aspect that's "More important.”

The digital lemmings are in the cult... I know, I used to be in it.

But don't even try to turn this into the analog guy against the world (another dodge). You have a million non-analog recordists that are fully aware of the loudness issue to talk to before you even get to me. See you in about 50 years (depending on how many you talk to a day of course.)

The age issue is just another dodge. By your reasoning no one over a certain age has anything to add. Like I've said before, there exists a perspective among some here that the older you are and the longer you've been recording, the less you know. That thinking isn’t young and stupid… just plain stupid. :rolleyes:
 
Glen, I totally hear what you're saying. I've actually started telling bands about this whole deal and I'll admit I was being a little hyperbole with my last post. I really can't stand unoriginal music. My last project was a high school ska band that went out of their way to be as ska as possible and my ears were crying every step of the way. Really all the bands I've done have been in my grade and there's really not much originality in a lot of the HS bands around here. Especially nothing genre-breaking.
I realize the responsibility of the engineer to produce a unique representation of the group, but i'm also being realistic about who I'm recording. A lot of the bands I've done have already broken up just due to 16 year-olds growing up. The last thing I would do is make a boring compressed turd for a band with real potential.

Wait, what am I talking about? I'm 19. I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. 2 years ago I didn't know what a compressor was...
Disregard it all:D
Back to the loudness war...
 
there are exceptions to every rule.
You're right, there are exceptions to every rule. But that doesn't mean what most people think it means. It has two meanings first and foremost before the meaning that you're using:

1. That there is a rule. The rule has to exist for there to be an exception to it.

So thank you for acknowledging that there is indeed a rule here. That's a big difference from saying there are no rules.

2. That the exception only proves the rule (as they say), it doesn't break it. Otherwise it would be a rule and the original rule would be but an exception.

On subjectivity: One can personally like to listen to white noise if they want to and find that invigorating. Hell, I knew a guy that use to put blank cassettes in his machine and just crank it. Problem is the mimes that lived next door always used to pretend to dial the police to get him to turn it down. ;)

So what? We're not going to bother talking about that extreme exception here. There ARE rules to nature, there ARE rules to music, and there ARE rules to audio engineering, like it or not. If you want to be the rebel and find something attractive just because it is rebellious and does throw up exceptions to every rule, that's fine. But the rules remain, like it or not.

Objectively, pancaking will remain fatiguing sounding and inferior to something not pancaked BECAUSE THAT'S THE NATURE OF THINGS outside of any subjective judgment, just as orange and purple will always clash, because it is THE NATURE of orange and purple to clash because of the dissonance in their frequencies. That is how the world is. It's not fashion, it's not judgment, it's not subjectivity, it's not a generational thing; it is cause and effect in the real world. Pancakes just are not part of the human experience as a rule (with exceptions), and therefore are not interpreted in the brain as very musical. The sooner one comes to accept that, the sooner they'll realize just how alive the world is and just how much better their mixes can actually sound.

And for the record, we're not talking about light clipping or distortion algorithms here. Were talking about pancaking songs into bricks. Were talking about serious, double-digit reductions in crest factor. If something just needs a couple of dB of limiting or soft clipping to become a brick, then it is not being pancaked, because it is pretty much a brick to begin with.

G.
 
Wow, so I was flipping through a recording magazine today and found a full-page article about "loud mixes". It basically said that old stuff sucks because it wasn't properly mastered and that everything should be turned into bricks because it's the way of the future. It went so far as to say that in today's industry loudness is more important than sound quality!:eek: There was a bunch more crap about how the monitors you master on don't make a difference because everyone will listen to it thru iPod headphones anyway. I wish I bought the thing so I could quote the article better. I couldn't believe it was actually printed in a bona fide magazine. At first I thought it was being sarcastic or something. Utterly ridiculous.
 
It went so far as to say that in today's industry loudness is more important than sound quality!:eek:
At least they got that part correct.

Just remember that in the 1970s, polyester was more important than cotton or silk, too. Brick audio is the polyester of the turn of the century.

1610_Leisure.jpg


G.
 
Spare me! That non-argument is used no matter what the issue. Thus nothing is EVER thoroughly examined on its own merits in these threads. The conclusion is there's always some aspect that's "More important.”

actually. This is very true. The kind of shit the average audio professional puts at the highest priorities are the things that people buying the records could care less about. The visual presentation of the waveform is almost stupid to think in itself will make any difference in the enjoyment or quality of the mix. As I've said over and over, there's a big difference between someone just trying to make their mix really loud and ending up that way, and someone who just happens to have a mix end up that way as a result of the style of mixing that they consciously chose as the most appropriate for the songs being worked on. The truth is, the visual presence of the waveform is right down there in importance with whether to use wav or aiff files as your file format for recording audio.

The digital lemmings are in the cult... I know, I used to be in it.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? You're speaking in gibberish now. Some kind of senile ramblings, no doubt?

But don't even try to turn this into the analog guy against the world (another dodge). You have a million non-analog recordists that are fully aware of the loudness issue to talk to before you even get to me. See you in about 50 years (depending on how many you talk to a day of course.)

But it IS just like that isn't it? You have to admit, there are a certain amount of the "old school" generation who do the typical "I feel like life passed me by" behavior such as glorifying everything the way it was in their heyday. Everything seems so much rosier when it happened a long time ago. Sure, there are plenty of people, myself included that realize that going out of your way to make a mix "loud" for whatever reason is a very stupid practice. I would never do that, actually. When I say from time to time my mixes can resemble that, it's the RESULT of what sounded the best in the mix, not the GOAL.

The age issue is just another dodge. By your reasoning no one over a certain age has anything to add. Like I've said before, there exists a perspective among some here that the older you are and the longer you've been recording, the less you know. That thinking isn’t young and stupid… just plain stupid. :rolleyes:

Not a dodge at all. Everything you say reeks of the "when I was your age" mentality of the old school of ANYTHING. It's not just audio, certain people who get used to being the "top of their game" when they are younger tend to fall into this trap when they feel that "the world has passed them by". It's a way of justifying themselves. The reality of it is, it's just silly to do this, as the world passes you by only when you allow it to. I know plenty of people who are up there in their years who are still on the cutting edge of technology and social matters. They have no reason to sit back and criticize all those "new fangled" things. It's actually quite a common trait in elders in our society, and I think it stems from the actuality that our society doesn't look kindly on people who are older, and don't appreciate them as contributers to our society. This, in turn, causes some of these folks to try to convince themselves and everyone around them that they alone hold the keys to everything. Anything created after their "prime" is criticized, regardless of it's quality, just because it isn't done just how it was. The audio industry is a very fast changing industry, and therefore, you don't have to wait until someone is 85 to start showing this type of behavior...sometimes signs of this can happen in a matter of even a decade from their "prime".

What's with kids these days, what's with music these days... essentially the same rhetorical questions, with the same source.

Of course assuming that anyone with time under their belt is going to act this way is silly. I never once in my entire life have made that claim. There are plenty of more old school guys who, instead of reaching a point where they will no longer contribute, and sit in their overstuffed chair yelling at the world for doing everything "wrong", will continue to grow and expand to new approaches, new ways of doing things, new ideas, etc... Go listen to some old Phil Spector stuff...it's SMASHED to SHIT! Way more than I ever would. The overall volume might be lower, due to the fact that it was being made for vinyl, but dynamic (in the mix) it isn't.

I'm just sick and tired of people spreading the lies that anything vintage (whether it be gear, or techniques) is vastly superior in every way to ANYTHING modern. You want to talk stupid? THAT is quite stupid thinking, actually. There is some greatness in vintage gear and technique, and there's some shit as well... just like right now. There are some awesome gear and techniques out right now, and some shit as well.

But, no matter...people with this mentality have convinced themselves that they are correct. No matter what anyone says, they know, because...they're older. No matter what anyone says, anything beyond the prime of their generation is crap...everything is going to hell without them and their peers at the steering wheel. Its the end of music. It's the end of the world. We're doomed. But, the world spins without these egomaniacs, and they end up wasting their time creating issues that don't exist and convincing people of things that aren't so.
 
You're right, there are exceptions to every rule. But that doesn't mean what most people think it means. It has two meanings first and foremost before the meaning that you're using:

1. That there is a rule. The rule has to exist for there to be an exception to it.

sure

So thank you for acknowledging that there is indeed a rule here. That's a big difference from saying there are no rules.

I'm not saying that. Might I add, one should be aware of whatever rules, and how it benefits you and how it inhibits you, before you go about breaking them. I'm well aware of every traditional and conventional way of doing things, and I know what pros and cons each technique will provide, which is why I have no qualms at all about creatively breaking any rule that better serves the piece being mixed to break (trust me, there are times, many times, where breaking the rules will bring you a better result than following them as long as you aren't flying blind... know what you're doing so you can intelligently break any rules you wish.

2. That the exception only proves the rule (as they say), it doesn't break it. Otherwise it would be a rule and the original rule would be but an exception.

How do you figure? I can't see where you're going with that at all.

On subjectivity: One can personally like to listen to white noise if they want to and find that invigorating. Hell, I knew a guy that use to put blank cassettes in his machine and just crank it. Problem is the mimes that lived next door always used to pretend to dial the police to get him to turn it down. ;)

hahaha that's a pretty extreme example, but sure, whatever... it's not so extreme of a concept to have lots of distortion on something in a way that works well with the song, as to blast white noise in your ears.

So what? We're not going to bother talking about that extreme exception here. There ARE rules to nature, there ARE rules to music, and there ARE rules to audio engineering, like it or not. If you want to be the rebel and find something attractive just because it is rebellious and does throw up exceptions to every rule, that's fine. But the rules remain, like it or not.

There are rules to nature, which do not apply to art. Art isn't a physical thing at all. Even if there is a painting in front of you, it's just a bunch of dried coloured shit caked on to some canvas material. What the art is, is what you take from the dried coloured shit... oh that looks like a tree, and I enjoy that tree, so that is a piece of art. Nature is physical. We can SEE art in nature, but nature ISN'T art in itself unless we choose to make it art to ourselves. There are some rules to music which have been consistently broken throughout the entire history of mankind, more than pretty much any other set of rules imaginable. Every single development in music from the begining of the human race can be attributed to someone breaking a rule somewhere. We wouldn't even have ANYTHING in the way of music as we know it without people throwing a middle finger up to convention and doing things how they felt they should be done. Again, rules are handy to know, to exploit, and then to break. Pretty much any person doesn't listen to a piece of music thinking about what rules are being perfectly followed..they like it or they don't. That's all they're thinking of...oh I like that note it makes me feel happy, oh that part makes me feel sad. THe only people who analyze music that way are people like us who are trying to do so in order to create our own music, and we are an extreme minority (and not our customer/listener base, in any major way) Maybe music critics do, but since when has any critic had any idea of what he's talking about?

Objectively, pancaking will remain fatiguing sounding and inferior to something not pancaked BECAUSE THAT'S THE NATURE OF THINGS outside of any subjective judgment, just as orange and purple will always clash, because it is THE NATURE of orange and purple to clash because of the dissonance in their frequencies. That is how the world is. It's not fashion, it's not judgment, it's not subjectivity, it's not a generational thing; it is cause and effect in the real world. Pancakes just are not part of the human experience as a rule (with exceptions), and therefore are not interpreted in the brain as very musical. The sooner one comes to accept that, the sooner they'll realize just how alive the world is and just how much better their mixes can actually sound.

Music never was and never will be objective. If there was a magic scientific formula to determine what everyone would enjoy, anyone could easily become the next big hit...which would really just make the concept of the "hit" non existent, since anyone who followed the formula could achieve said success. There is no formula, there is no good or bad. Music doesn't work that way, or any art for that matter. What's beautiful for one group of people can be the worst thing in the world for another. There is nothing that is universally unpleasant when it comes to art. Orange and Purple only clash if it hasn't been designated as art...and then as soon as it is designated as art...these people over here feel this from that colour combination, these people over here hate it... the people down the hall love it... the critics slam it...the art community praises it... whatever. You simply can't apply any artistic form to any set of rules in order to determine it's merit. As I said, if that were possible, we'd see everyone hitting a home run so to speak every time.

And for the record, we're not talking about light clipping or distortion algorithms here. Were talking about pancaking songs into bricks. Were talking about serious, double-digit reductions in crest factor. If something just needs a couple of dB of limiting or soft clipping to become a brick, then it is not being pancaked, because it is pretty much a brick to begin with.

G.

One thing I observe of people as a whole, which causes them and the world around them much confusion and frustration is... nobody can understand anything beyond a strict black and white world view. It's either good or evil, it's either pleasant or horrid, it's either moral or immoral, it's either right or left, hyper conservative or insanely liberal. There are no shades of grey in their minds. There are no varying degrees to anything. In this case...it's either done just like it was in the 60s or it's a brick that sounds like absolute shit. It's either vintage and awesome, or modern and horrible. Now, I've said over and over... The loudness war itself is stupid. It makes no rational sense and it does tend to get really bad sounding mixes... but that's because it's the approach being taken, instead of doing what works for the songs, just trying to one up everyone else... That's not what I'm talking about here.

I'm saying... Sometimes the way a really hotly mixed track sounds can aide a song, sometimes it can't. Can anyone argue the point I've made a couple of times here, that if nobody broke any rules, we wouldn't see any forward movement in music? Music isn't perfect, and never has been...if it were perfect, it wouldn't need constant revision...which has been taking place since the idea of music first hit our ancestors' brains.

In my own work, I don't just compress something heavily...I compress lightly several times in an effects chain... a little bit of compression right up front in the channel strip, some eq and other effects, a little bit more saturation after that, then some more effects, and a little bit of limiting at the end of the chain just to not overdrive the master bus, but maybe slightly overdrive the channel faders (depending on the instrument). It's just my mixing style. I'm not a minimalist in any way. Minimalism is just fine, but it's not so much how I work, and I would disagree with anyone who said that was an inferior way of working. It's just different to some people. Why do you think it is, that I get criticized for my techniques, and then by the same exact people, praised for my results? Some of these people have even convinced themselves., that I "must have taken their advice" to get it to sound as the result does...when in fact, I didn't change anything one iota.
 
You go ahead and keep creating what you enjoy, Terra. That's what life is all about, and I won't deny you that. :)

G.
 
serious limiting can be heard
serious limiting sounds bad
if it sounds bad, it is bad
therefore:
serious limiting is bad.

i participate in this (brick wall thing) under duress.
(sorry to say, it's probably not a fad, at least not in pop music)
 
Wow, so I was flipping through a recording magazine today and found a full-page article about "loud mixes". It basically said that old stuff sucks because it wasn't properly mastered and that everything should be turned into bricks because it's the way of the future. It went so far as to say that in today's industry loudness is more important than sound quality!:eek: There was a bunch more crap about how the monitors you master on don't make a difference because everyone will listen to it thru iPod headphones anyway. I wish I bought the thing so I could quote the article better. I couldn't believe it was actually printed in a bona fide magazine. At first I thought it was being sarcastic or something. Utterly ridiculous.
This one? ;)
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/186312-very-funny-article-recording-mag.html
Scott's prob' one of the good guys.
 
The only way to stop it is to stop it.

G.
 
Dynamics are a crucial part of a song. I don't care if it's Beethoven, or Black Flag. Over compression or limmiting is just not acceptable to me, and thats as a listener. You can tell when a track has no dynamics in it. The only time it's okay to over compress any thing is if its to achieve a desired effect.

and thats my $.02
 
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