Over compressing/the loudness war

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Perhaps myself and a few of my buddies would be the ones interested in listening to it, but I love the way over-produced slick nu-metal (using Limp Bizkit as an example, however much you hate them) sounds just as much as organic '60s live recordings that are full of space and character.
Does that mean you would master them the same way? You seem to be implying - and rightfully so, IMHO - that what what you think works for one album may not necessarily be what works for another.

This is what kills me about this whole thing; I have here in front of me three tracks as different as they could be in style, genre, sound and feel: an alt-rock anthem, a modern cover of an early '70s space rock classic, and an old, laid-back blues ballad standard. Those who have been around know that I cite these tracks quite often, because they just bother the bejeezus out of me as textbook examples of pushing the volume for no reason and degrading the overall sound in the process.

The question these examples beg is, what business does a blues standard, a space rock cover and an alt-rock anthem have getting the same kind of mastering treatment? The sad fact is they all sound awful compared to what they would sound like if they weren't pushed over the edge, of course. But it's the whole idea that the content is irrelevant to the mastering that's the real problem.

G.
 
An interesting observation i've made is out of the 6 or 7 demo CDs I've done for my friends' bands, they always prefer the solid brick version to the Sgt. Peppers dynamics version. I think my generation growing up with commercial stuff being so compressed has created a mindset that that's what a CD is supposed to sound like.

Nope. The ear automatically believes that louder is more powerful. Next time, give them both versions, but after brick-walling the ubercompressed version, nerf it down to the same percieved volume of the not-ruined version. I'll bet you one whole dollar that they pick the properly mastered version.

Although, the supercompressed stuff does sound more balanced at very low playback volumes, and changes in its audibility less as you turn it up.
 
No offense to your father, mixsit, ol boy, but did he just plain sleep through ragtime and swing when he was a young'un? ..;)
Nah, just me doing a piss poor job of paraphrasing and trying to fit the whole meaning in too few words. That and perhaps the stint in the Pacific theater changing one's perception of the need for any more "excitement". ;)

BTW, I think you must have meant Wendy's used to do some good bergs'. Something happened along the way there too, and IIRC, about the same time their chilly went from a clear broth style with chunks of meat and tomato -to a (fitting for the times?)... homogenized. :D
 
that's why we have parallel compression now??
best of both world??
 
RAMI said:
Isn't that what an expander does?

I have absolutely no idea what an expander does, so very likely!

And to SSG, no I don't think the two examples I gave should get the same treatment.
However, speaking of examples I thought of another one - Nirvana's Nevermind has a MASSIVE sound and (correct me if I'm miles out) it doesn't seem to be over-compressed and pushed right to the limits. However, you get a modern band who are, to intents and purposes, trying to sound like Nirvana, and their album is guaranteed to be a big contender in the loudness war...
 
that's why we have compression now??
best of both world??
Parallel lets you attack from a different direction, or style', but necessarily for any better or worse in the outcome.

IMHO one aspect of high compression/limiting/density, is the box it forces most of the aspects of recording into. Certain 'tones can not exist, some things that might should have stayed background' aren't, tracking, arrangement, mastering all tilt towards 'damage control' mode. On and on.
 
Well...after "evaluating" lots of my modern music by simply looking at all of those icky square waves, I've decided to just throw all of it out!!! I can't believe I ever listened to any of this crap! These mixes must sound terrible...just TERRIBLE!!! Thanks guys for verifying this for me. :rolleyes:
 
Because a giant square wave NEVER sounds as good as a normal feather duster wave. It's not what it looks like that matters, you're right. But when it looks like that, it's going to sound like crap no matter how you parse the argument.

Exactly!

In many cases we can SEE just how bad something sounds, whether we've heard it or not.

This first snap below is from a 1983 CD of ABBA’s “One of Us.”

The second shot is from a 2005 digitally remastered segment of the same song. It can clearly be seen by the graphic that the life has been sucked right out of it. We can’t compress stuff like this whether analog or digital and expect the dynamics to survive it.

:)
 

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We should post our favourite non-smashed-to-shit albums that have been released within the past 5 years.
 
We should post our favourite non-smashed-to-shit albums that have been released within the past 5 years.

Midlake's album Trials of Van Occupanther is one that comes to mind for me
 
We should post our favourite non-smashed-to-shit albums that have been released within the past 5 years.

That's a good idea... I'm going to let the hangover kick in and do some homework ... then I'll post an image of my results.
 
Because a giant square wave NEVER sounds as good as a normal feather duster wave. It's not what it looks like that matters, you're right. But when it looks like that, it's going to sound like crap no matter how you parse the argument.

It's like saying, who cares what the lines on the seismograph look like, as long as there isn't an earthquake. Well, if the seismograph is drawing squarewaves, there's an earthquake.

Sure it is. It's like fashon, it goes in cycles. in the 80's everybody though that synth rock was both the present and future; electronics and electronic sound was here to say so you'd better get used to it. Now you listen to Flock of Seagulls or The Tubes and it sounds so incredibly dated. No, the next fashon came from Seattle, and instead of using synths and space suits and hair gel, it was about a guy who needed a shave wearing a dirty flannel shirt and playing an acoustic guitar.

Engineers are rebelling and fighting the square wave, word is getting out, and the bleeding edge producers are already starting to re-discover texture and dynamics in some of the leading edge mixes. The pendulum is starting to swing. It's s slow swing, but it's coming. In another 5-10 years we will be listening back at the square waves of the turn of the century, and they will sound just as dated as the second Tears for Fears album.

G.

I don't totally agree, actually. Yes, a lot of the time people get the square waveforms out of either inexperience or going for the wrong goal (loud vs. quality) but there's nothing to say that the visual presence of your waveform will have ANY bearing on what it sounds like.

The thing is, I don't TOTALLY disagree with anything your saying here... but I just wanted to make it clear that just because it looks a certain way doesn't even mean it will have a certain sound to it. Personally, I get fairly hot mixes straight out of Logic, without even thinking about needing to "make it louder". I've fallen under the same "visual mixing" trap that a lot of people are in at one time, and honestly, I went right back to what I'm doing now, as everything went from sounding fairly lush, rich, and polished, to cold, unmusical, and boring. It's just my mixing style. I get the best results using a lot of saturation and distortion.

Sure, if you're trying to join a fashion, or something like that..how fucking stupid is that! But, that's not the ONLY reason one would have really hot mixes. Sometimes it just sounds good that way for the project. For my primary band, "square wave" mixes accomplish the overall emotion and energy very nicely...which would be very much lost had I mixed with large amounts of dynamics (note: except for the parts that are supposed to be more groove oriented, or sound that way) In other words, I'm not shooting for being "loud" at all, just ends up being that way, being that I use a lot of saturation and distortion in the mixes of that project (mostly everything except for kick and snare are smashed fairly liberally) That's the difference... I made a conscious decision that in order to get the aural and textural result that would best convey the feeling of the music, I would break the rules of mixing quite liberally.

And let me repeat, I've had some other industry people comment that they were glad that I "wasn't falling into the loudness war trap" and they loved how dynamic my mixes were and not just one big square wave... lol... this is referring to the mixes of the project in which are very "square wave" visually... maybe not so much aurally... (what is it I always say about mixing with the arrangement? :D way more effective than mixing with any plugins or outboard gear when you can do it.) I've had the odd experience my entire time doing audio (about 13 years now) of industry people militantly criticizing my techniques, but at the same time, the very same people praising my results. In my short stint in "audio school" I would be told every way possible how my methods were "wrong" but then I would win awards for best mix, with the exact same people behind it. So what does that tell you? Well, it tells me, that it's "popular" to assume that doing something a certain way will automatically make it sound like shit, but it tells me that this is just BS. THere are a million ways to do something like record and mix a song, and NOTHING is incorrect, as long as you get a great result.

It's just that this argument annoys me a slight bit because it spreads the misinformation that the way your waveform looks is either "good" or "bad' It's neither... If you're mixing for vinyl things like this are much more important, but the appearance of the waveform is entirely useless as long as it sounds good... it could look like Dick Cheney shooting his mother in the face and it wouldn't matter worth even one shit, let alone two.

Have you ever considered that maybe the militantly anti loud mix idea is ALSO quite fashionable this day and age? :D Just a thought.
 
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I hope you're right southside. The loudness war is producing some very boring music, IMO. These kinds of producers remind me of a bunch of hyperactive school kids...whoever shouts the loudest gets the most attention. The Beatles didn't have to shout....they could sing! And they got more than a little attention don't ya think!

no...it's that nobody gives a shit about being original or breaking boundaries...that's why music sucks these days. You could mix a shitty song ANY way and it will still be a piece of shit.
 
Let's do 'perception' again, 'point of reference'. About forty years ago (yikes..!:rolleyes::D) I had a conversation with my dad (who was also a musician FWIW :)) about the 'excitement of rock n' roll. He countered in so many words 'music should be soothing'.
Hell I bet you could still find a few people on this planet that would question 'why hell would you want a guitar that's loud and distorted?'
:p :D

took the words right out of my mouth... conventional wisdom/popular truth doesn't automatically become wise or full of truth.. in fact, from everything I've observed in my life, it's more often than not, the popular/conventional truths that are the most full of shit.

Hitler himself said... the bigger the lie is, the easier it is to get people to believe it.
 
N00b Alert!!

I'm quite unfamiliar with the science of things here. I've recently just found a desire to record (I'm 25, been singing about since birth, drums since 10, guitar and bass for about 5-6 years now), and I don't even know exactly what a compressor does. Enlightenment, please...
 
TerraMortim--

I agree with your position on this. First off--we shouldn't mix for the visual impact; but if it's a big ol' fat square wave because it should be, then so be it. That doesn't mean it's going to sound bad.

Some of my own music is more like the tracks from the 60's & 70's--small waveform, lots of dynamics. Some of it has both that and big blocks of square.

And right now I'm recording a band whose waveforms will be blocks for sure. And for their sound, that's the way it should be. If folks don't like that sound, then fine. But saying audio should never be like that makes about as much sense as saying it should always be like that.
 
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