Otari MX5050 and general used gear compatability questions?

[reelconfused]

First off,

Let me know if this is the wrong forum for this question.

I have an assortment of old mic pres and mixers, a shure m67, a valley people dyna-mic, an input module from an ampex 602, and all of them have unbalanced 1/4" outs.

I'd like to run them directly into the Otari mx5050 mk3 8 track 1/2", which has xlr ins(wired pin 3 hot!). Also, I'd like to be able to track very far away from the tape machine. I haven't found much on this particular problem through searches, so I'll tell you what I think I have to do.

I think I'll have to A: buy output trannies for each output and wire them up as either xlr or trs. Or maybe I could just B: wire up some 1/4" to xlr cables pin 3 hot and keep these pre's close to the tape machine and just use really long mic cables or an xlr snake with nothing between the microphones and the tracking room. (50ft or more)


Okay so i guess i'm asking which of these is better. I'd prefer the B option because I'm going to have to route in and out of my tracking room anyways and i wouldn't want to drop a ton of money on trannies, plus my understanding of transformers is that they would color the sound. I've read that the point of balanced cables is to allow for little signal loss and noise interference over long distances, but extremely long distances with no gain until the end of the chain?

would it make more sense to buy an 8 bus mixer with all xlr outs?

Is wiring 1/4" to xlr over short distances gonna mess with my sound quality?

Do other people come across this problem much. I mean I'm not shoping for compatable boutique gear, I just have come across a couple great deals on old usable peices and cleaned them up.


Thanks for all the good info on this board

-rc

 

[The Ghost of FM]

A good old direct box will generally do a good job of balancing an unbalanced signal and pumping it up to something closer in level that the deck or mixer would like to see, signal-wise.

As much as Behringer is a hated brand, they actually make a nice little DI box called the Ultra-G GI-100 that does a competent job with electric guitars and electric bass with even a cool little amp modeler built in, which can be turned off. I use one one those and like very much.

Of course, having a mixer when multi-tracking is an absolute must regardless so, live large and budget for both.

Cheers!

 

[reelconfused]

Thank you for the reply ghost of FM.

So you think that just wiring up some custom cables would be a higher quality loss than the direct box?

I don't want to add more noise to the chain and i already have a soundraft 200b that I would like to just use for monitoring/mixdown and a tangent 12x2 that I use for a 3 track drum mix. The Otari mx5050 has a trim pot on every track to control input gain and a High and low impedence setting. Would a cheap direct box be that much better than a cheaper transformer and xlr jack?

Do people typically have to buy more gear to make everything compatable?

 

[Dr ZEE]

Do people typically have to buy more gear to make everything compatable?

Not to say that they have to, but they typically DO.

I am not sure if I 100% got the exact situation you are facing. In general I'd say:
1. place the recorder as close as possible to your mixer (or other recording equipment involved in the process, like your variety of pre(s) etc.) so you'd need the shortest possible cables to connect the recorder to the mixer/or patchbay/or what ever recording gear in the rack is involved in your set-up.
2. Make your own custom cables (or snake) to connect the recorder with what ever gear (so you have them all 'custom short').
When making cables you may find this Sound System Interconnection (fr. Rane Technical Staff) guiding page usefull ... if you need this info.
3. Worry about length and/or quality of the microphone and/or instrumets cables, running from recording room/location to your mixer/recorder/rec.gear room/location, later.
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4...... then depending on specifics of what instruments, microphones, preamps you are dealing with and specifics of the task(s) you are trying to accomplish - you may or may not need to look into purchasing extra gear or two ... most likely you will not need any, but ...
....on the other hand - we always do need new gear - it's in the "nature of the beast"
Emily: "Mr. Call, what kind of man are you?"
Call: "The kind that don't like bullets for breakfast!"




/respects

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Would a cheap direct box be that much better than a cheaper transformer and xlr jack?

I don't know about the cheap part?

A decent DI box can run anywhere from $60 ~ $250...talking names like Countryman at the higher end of the price scale.

If you're referring to those $7.99 Radio Shack adapters which have the 14 cent micro-transformers in them, then yes, absolutely, a decent direct box will walk all over the RS solution because it offers a flatter frequency response and far less issues with phase.

If you have a decently equipped musical instrument store in your area with rental services or a workable return policy, try out a moderate priced DI box and see if you like it's results. Worst case scenario; you take it back and get out of the house for a couple of hours.

Cheers!

 

[Dr ZEE]

Mr. Ghost, ... I feel kinda dumb, but would you do me a favor and explain what exactly is the reason for you to advise getting and trying to use a direct box(s) in his situation.... I mean what exactly good would it do? ...maybe I'm totally missing something, chances are I AM missing something.
I 'm havin'no clue 'bout "valley people" , but I don't think you'd need a direct box between sure m67 or ampex's 602 preamp and mixer (or otari's inputs).... (btw, reelconfused!, are sure that 1/4" output of the ampex 602 is unbalanced?! Double check... I may be completely wrong... but I'm not sure 'bout it).

/respects

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Mr. Ghost, ... I feel kinda dumb, but would you do me a favor and explain what exactly is the reason for you to advise getting and trying to use a direct box(s) in his situation.... I mean what exactly good would it do? ...maybe I'm totally missing something, chances are I AM missing something.

/respects

The reason why I suggest a DI box is two-fold.

1 - Reelconfused stated he wanted to run a "long" line between where he plays/works and where the recorder would be situated. Long lines require a balanced signal so as not to pick up hum, RFI and other junk along the way that can be generated by long unbalanced lines.

2 - DI boxes are a quality way of converting an unbalanced signal into a balanced one.

Yes, you could get away with the Radio-Shack grade transformer adapters but, they have very poor grade transformers in them that do not offer a linear frequency response and if you make use of them, you run the risk of dramatically changing the wonderful personalities of these vintage pre-amps. One might equate this in car terminology and describe it as running a nice Cadillac sedan on bicycle tires.

Does any of this make sense?

Cheers!

 

[Dr ZEE]

Ghost... everything you are saying makes perfect sense
Arghhhhh, forget about radioshack "spice" in the cooking ..lol heh heh heh
You, see, those "wonderful personalities" are the main issue here... imho , that's why I would think of avoiding 'inserting' anything between them and the recorder ... unless you really have to or it just makes perfect sense (for example, "inserting" recording mixer's channel does make sense to me). So I'd try to keep "wonderful personalities" close together with the mixer and the recorder... while letting mic's/instrument's cables to "face the issue of distance" between the recording room/location and control room/location (if there will be any issue at all).
....
well, again, I can't really speak here from personal experience, I never had to run 50ft or so of any cables... so what do I know...

/respects

 

[Dr ZEE]

Shure M67 info is: HERE (pdf)
*****
here's ampex 602 output (cut from schematics) (pic attached)
(you can find some ampex schematics HERE )
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[The Ghost of FM]

I have an assortment of old mic pres and mixers, a shure m67, a valley people dyna-mic, an input module from an ampex 602, and all of them have unbalanced 1/4" outs.

DrZee's diligent and free research would indicate that your units should be balanced units yet you claim all of them are not?

Do you have special versions of these units or have you just assumed they are not balanced outs?

Cheers!

 

[reelconfused]

Well, you know what assuming leads to...

Thanks to both of you for the replies. For some reason i thought balanced trs 1/4" outs was a relatively new trend aside from stereo and send/return. I figured I was going to have to find manuals if I modified the output, but never dreamed they would present such a simple solution.

I think I'm going to owe you some royalties for the legwork Dr Zee, right after all the huge contracts roll in...

...oh wait, this looks like camel cash!

ps: just to save a little face, I'm talking mouser $40-$80 transformers, not radio shack. Although, now that I think about that more thoroughly, i could probably get another m67 on ebay for less than a decent transformer, so why would I do that? I guess that still would leave me at home, but spring's right around the corner.

Thanks again for the info Dr Zee and Ghost

 

[Dr ZEE]

I think I'm going to owe you some royalties for the legwork Dr Zee, right after all the huge contracts roll in...
...oh wait, this looks like camel cash!

HA-HA ..lol ... also, not much work on my part, I actually happened to dig through the same dusty archive of old docs while trying to bring back to life an old ampex junko' , which is -thing to do
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For some reason i thought balanced trs 1/4" outs was a relatively new trend aside from stereo and send/return.

heh... Don't be fooled by depth and amount of wrinkles. Never underestimate an Old Fart
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-Okay, bad guy, we're taking this outside! I want to whip your asymmetrical sagging ass! Get out there in that parking lot!
- Here we go again...
- I've got ten on Frank!