Organics vs. MDI

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bdenton said:
And regarding the poster who said:

I don't think I could live with a "mall" kid's sense of musicality haha

Snobbery will get you nowhere...;) And just remember, it was mall kids who made the Beatles rich. And I don't think you'll find very many people who will claim they were lousy songwriters and musicians...
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Read the post more closely lol There is no "snobbery"... that's the sorta thing that makes me stay away from the forums at times. I simply stated that I (as in MYSELF) couldn't just deal with "mall kids" not being able to tell the difference because they don't really care... If I knew it wasn't me or my drummer and I could tell a difference, that wouldn't be enough for me. I def don't preform for other musicians (too critical as well as most are terrible and have opinions) but, If I can do drums big and real, I ABSOLUTELY will! It's just a matter of self pride, and, yes, MOST bands make it big off of "mall kids", but that's a far tangent from the question haha. We're not talking about "what sells". Sorry If I came off rude though, that wasn't directed at anyone.
 
gecko zzed said:
Many listeners, specially mall kids, may not be aware, or even care, whether the music is programmed or live. But other musicians can tell.
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OF course, you have to know your target audience. If you are trying to sell your music to other musicians, totally organic would be the way to go...unless your genre is electronica...

If you are trying to get some sort of mass appeal, it won't matter how it's made because the 'mass' doesn't care one bit how any of it is made.
 
No worries ND, people are always looking for a reason to argue on these forums....water off a duck's back.

Interesting thread. I would have to inject that the line between MIDI and organic is becoming more and more blurry all the time. There is MIDI samples in almost all top 40 pop stuff today, whether it's drums, or synth, it's just happening all the time and no one notices. There a members on here who are using a LOT more MIDI than you would think just by listening to their stuff.

It's all about how you use it, some people are getting fantastic results, others are just adding a toy piano to their song.

Live and let live and try to make GOOD music.
 
This argument was had when the electric guitar was invented. Probably when every other evolution of any sort of instrument happened back through history.

Of course samples and VSTi's are not the real instrument. That misses the point completely. They are still musical instruments in their own right. Just like an electric guitar is still a musical instrument even though it isn't the more proper acoustic guitar, and just like the steel strung acoustic guitar isn't the cat gut strung classical guitar that came before it.

Only musicians and engineers will wring their hands and worry about any of this stuff. The music buying public doesn't care and doesn't know the difference. Hell, most of them think that you make an album by setting the band up in a room, they play the song, and the album is done an hour later. They don't know how much work goes into it, they don't know the difference between a les paul through a marshall or a Rick through a fender, or maple shells vs. birch shells, tube mics vs. an SM-7, or any of the other crap we always seem so worried about.

If you are making music that conveys some sort of feeling to the listener, it doesn't matter how you accomplish it. It just matters that you do.
 
Farview said:
...they don't know the difference between a les paul through a marshall or a Rick through a fender, or maple shells vs. birch shells, tube mics vs. an SM-7, or any of the other crap we always seem so worried about...
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Man, that's the stuff I love there :D
 
JFTR: When I play, I play the absolute best I can. I hope other musicians, engineers, whatever are appreciative of my work.

Just because you're marketing to a mass audience doesn't mean you can't turn out quality music. If you're a good player you're a good player.

I just don't let myself get bogged down with things like the "purity" of one's music. If I can get the sound I want out of a top-of-the line drumset, so be it. If I can get the sound I want by hitting a hubcap with a rock, so be it. If I can get the sound I want by throwing in a little bit of MIDI and some sampled drums, so be it. As long as I'm getting the sound that I or the other people associated with the recording want, how I get it is immaterial to me...
 
Farview said:
This argument was had when the electric guitar was invented. Probably when every other evolution of any sort of instrument happened back through history.

Of course samples and VSTi's are not the real instrument. That misses the point completely. They are still musical instruments in their own right. Just like an electric guitar is still a musical instrument even though it isn't the more proper acoustic guitar, and just like the steel strung acoustic guitar isn't the cat gut strung classical guitar that came before it.

Only musicians and engineers will wring their hands and worry about any of this stuff. The music buying public doesn't care and doesn't know the difference. Hell, most of them think that you make an album by setting the band up in a room, they play the song, and the album is done an hour later. They don't know how much work goes into it, they don't know the difference between a les paul through a marshall or a Rick through a fender, or maple shells vs. birch shells, tube mics vs. an SM-7, or any of the other crap we always seem so worried about.

If you are making music that conveys some sort of feeling to the listener, it doesn't matter how you accomplish it. It just matters that you do.
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+ 1


as for making convincing drums...i do it for a fun sometimes...i dont even use acoustic drums, half the folks in here would have a clue let alone the general public..all it takes is time, the software is there
 
Are you going to keep an orchestra out of your music just because you can't afford to rent the New York Philharmonic? Or keep that violin accent out of the bridge just because you don't have access to a mic'd up violin player? Nonsense. With a MIDI keyboard and some decent digital voices or samples, you can get lush, organic sounds without having to go truly first-person organic. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And, BTW, samples are no less real than recording an "organic" source. They are, in fact,the same thing; a sample is nothing but a recording of an organic source. The only difference is whether it's you doing the recording in your garage or a team of pros doing it for you elsewhere.

G.
 
One more thing: If you are only going to listen to artists that are noble and pure of heart, you can get the smallest ipod they make and never worry about filling it up.
 
Some of the decisions also have to do with the type of music you are making.

I use to do a LOT of MIDI sequenced stuff, but then I was also more into the "electronic" vibe. These days I'm leaning more toward old-school Rock/Pop, so I prefer to record my instruments rather than use MIDI synths...but, I've added stings, horns and even some percussion that were all MIDI/samples. Of course, these days I have a better studio and a lot more "real" instruments to record. When I had a small room and not a lot of instruments...the samples were the only way to go.

The one thing I don't do anymore with MIDI is to sequence out the parts and then just let the sequencer play them. Instead, if I'm going to use a synth patch...I play it and record it "live", sometimes to tape to "analog-ize" it some more.
That way, I get away from the mechanical/clinical vibe of a sequencer.

That said...if/when I get back to doing Electronic/Head/Trance flavored stuff...I may very well use sequencing for some things, and then real playing for others, and then mix it all together.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Are you going to keep an orchestra out of your music just because you can't afford to rent the New York Philharmonic? Or keep that violin accent out of the bridge just because you don't have access to a mic'd up violin player? Nonsense. With a MIDI keyboard and some decent digital voices or samples, you can get lush, organic sounds without having to go truly first-person organic. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And, BTW, samples are no less real than recording an "organic" source. They are, in fact,the same thing; a sample is nothing but a recording of an organic source. The only difference is whether it's you doing the recording in your garage or a team of pros doing it for you elsewhere.

G.
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I agree 100% MIDI makes it possible to make your music better. I think the general idea here is that, it mostly depends on what you are after... which is true with anything! It also depends on what you have at your disposal, and frankly what sounds better. We have miked horns before and then we'll pop in some MIDI brass and it sounds WAY better.

Samples are the same thing as recording the real source, no question there, but how they are put together is very different... that's why EZDrummer has a "Humanize" feature :)
 
notredamer0789 said:
I agree 100% MIDI makes it possible to make your music better. I think the general idea here is that, it mostly depends on what you are after... which is true with anything! It also depends on what you have at your disposal, and frankly what sounds better. We have miked horns before and then we'll pop in some MIDI brass and it sounds WAY better.

Samples are the same thing as recording the real source, no question there, but how they are put together is very different... that's why EZDrummer has a "Humanize" feature :)
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EZ drummer is shite thought...just for the record ;)
 
Does anyone think of the bigger picture? MIDI is great, Samples are great, I use them and im not going to start shouting about how impure it is.

But what happens to the New York Philharmonic when the guys who can afford to use them turn round and go "ya know what, nobody gives a fuck about quality anymore, so lets save the $1000000 we would spend renting the studio, producer, mixing enginner, mastering engineer and all that jazz, and use MIDI"

and then: (not to offend anyone here its just a geralization) All these people think, hey I can buy VSL for dirt cheap "IM GUNNA MAKE A FILM SCORE" but these people who may quite rightly be hopeless musicians flood the 'market place' so the people who actually give a crap can't work because all anybody wants is the crap music that comes dirt cheap. So in the end we end up with crap music created by computers.

LOL quite extreamist view. but just trying to paint a picture
 
benherron.rrr said:
Does anyone think of the bigger picture? MIDI is great, Samples are great, I use them and im not going to start shouting about how impure it is.

But what happens to the New York Philharmonic when the guys who can afford to use them turn round and go "ya know what, nobody gives a fuck about quality anymore, so lets save the $1000000 we would spend renting the studio, producer, mixing enginner, mastering engineer and all that jazz, and use MIDI"

and then: (not to offend anyone here its just a geralization) All these people think, hey I can buy VSL for dirt cheap "IM GUNNA MAKE A FILM SCORE" but these people who may quite rightly be hopeless musicians flood the 'market place' so the people who actually give a crap can't work because all anybody wants is the crap music that comes dirt cheap. So in the end we end up with crap music created by computers.

LOL quite extreamist view. but just trying to paint a picture
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yeah I felt the sample for all those skiffle players were made redundant when NI's "skiffle for kontakt" came out :D

I watched a cheapo sci fi flick recently...but for some reason great cinematography and the soundtrack was oustanding...I couldnt help thinking it was just one guy, in a room, with samples and midi but he did a fantastic job (soundtracks dont normally stand out to me)
 
oh yeah sorry I forget to include a point with my last post lol
 
bdenton said:
You've already answered part of this yourself:

Uhhhhh...not! True, both of our user names start with "b", but we're actually two different posters.
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Ooops . . . sorry about that. Must have been late at night or something. It doesn't really detract from my point though . . .I just need to rephrase my statement to read: "Someone else has already answered part of it"
 
kcearl said:
EZ drummer is shite thought...just for the record ;)
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Ouch... I bet you could poll that and you'd get a different point of view haha. Yes, it's a cheaper and "entry" level type of Drum Sampling software, but EVERYONE I've talked to adores the program. I don't use it much due to the fact that it's more of a songwriting/project based program, IMHO, but none the less very useful :D
 
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