Oktava, Mk012 for drum overheads

[chessrock]

what if I placed 2 overheads, rather than one, on Track 1, and the kick mic on Track 2. I realize that would be a mono recording. But, would it at least pick up both sides of the kit, . while still keeping phasing problems to a minimum. . ?

You know what I'm going to say, don't you? Try it and see if it works. It's the only way you'll ever hope to learn anything and get out of your clueless phase in to the big leagues of audio engineering. At this point, you've asked a lot of questions and gotten some solid responses. You should have a good idea by now what issues you'll be facing.

Right now, all you're going to get are personal preferences. Should I use the blue drum sticks or the red ones? Well, I like the red ones because they're easier to spot if someone decides to throw one at me.

 

[studiodrum]

LOL, .. Okay, okay point taken. . .

Thanks guys .. . .

 

[noiseportrait]

Anyway, back to micing the drums, . what if I placed 2 overheads, rather than one, on Track 1, and the kick mic on Track 2. I realize that would be a mono recording. But, would it at least pick up both sides of the kit, . while still keeping phasing problems to a minimum. . ?

Unless it's a huge 10 peice kit, I've never had a problem with one LCD placed above the kit not picking up everything. If you are having trouble balancing the kit with one mic, then try placing it further out in front or behind the kit rather than higher up in the air. I find this works better than placing the overhead(s) close to the ceiling because you can start to get comb filtering, early reflections off the ceiling, and for some reason more phase problems. though I often prefer stereo, I've never had a problem getting a good drum sound with one LCD as a mono overhead. If you are curious, then you should definitely try the double-mono thing, that's how we learn what works and what doesn't, but it seems to me like it's a waste of an extra track and more of a hastle then it's worth. YMMV.

 

[mrface2112]

i've been using a pair of 603's as overheads for a little over a year now. they are indeed very bright. they do the job, but they definitely emphasize the reflectiveness of the room and any harshness you have in your cymbals. they're fantastic on acoustics, though......and while they'll make-do as overheads, they're not what i'd grab first.

while this is an LDC instead of an SDC, i just recently picked up a V67G and i've found it to be FAR more pleasing as an overhead than the 603's. it's darker and meatier sounding, whereas the 603's seemed thin and brittle. needless to say, i DID have a pair of MC012's on my short list of things to get.......but a second V67 has been bumped to the top b/c i'd really like to try a pair of them as overheads.

in the meantime, i'm really enjoying the 3-mic mono drum sound i'm getting out of my kit. i DO miss the big tom rolls around the kit, but the overall sound is much nicer than what i was getting with the 603's.


cheers,
wade

 

[HangDawg]

I'll chime in with a positive on the LDC out front. I've been using a Baby Bottle about 6' out about 5' 6" off floor. It sounds great all by itself. This mic is really impressing the hell out of me.

 

[studiodrum]

while this is an LDC instead of an SDC, i just recently picked up a V67G and i've found it to be FAR more pleasing as an overhead than the 603's. it's darker and meatier sounding, whereas the 603's seemed thin and brittle. needless to say, i DID have a pair of MC012's on my short list of things to get.......but a second V67 has been bumped to the top b/c i'd really like to try a pair of them as overheads.

Sounds like a good idea using a LDC as overheads, and since I was planning on buying a V67G as a vocal mic, it might save me a little money if the mic can do double duty-- if I like the sound.

Hey, Mrface, . .when you were using the V67G as an overhead, did you also use a kick mic, . . ? and what about when you were using the 603's in Stereo. . how many tracks were you using, and how were mics arranged for those tracks?

Also, is it generally a good idea to use shock mounts when using any type of condensers as overheads?

 

[studiodrum]

just a quick update. . .!

Hey everybody,
Thanks again for all your input and help. . .its always appreciated.

Finally,. I had some time last night to play around and try this 'mono' drum micing idea, so I thought I would give you guys a quick update . .Well, I have to tell you, it went great!

I got some fantastic drum sounds using just 2 drum mics, recording the entire drum kit in mono (I used an MXL-v67G, as a single overhead -- roughly 2 feet above, and slightly behind the drum set -- and an ATM25-Pro on the kick)

*** Cheap mic selection, I realize-- but still very effective ***

(I may not crap from Crisco when trying to track my own stuff in my make-shift home studio, But, I've been a professional musician for over 20 years, and I do know what sounds good (Don't get me wrong! It still all relative. . .there are a lot of variables involved in getting a descent drum sound. . I mean my so called great sound is another mans 'nail across a chalk board' But, for a piddley little 4 track home recorder, in a basement room. LOL, . It worked!)

Anyway, I was very impressed with what I got, . .the LDC added some nice overall fullness to the kit, while the ATM 25Pro, added some good punchy bottom--

I'm now a firm believer, that the actual drum kit has a huge part of the sound that you get from the mics-- I've been tuning drums practically all my life it seems, and I just take for granted sometimes that a well tuned kit, and the right equipment for the job,..is a REAL big part of the drum kit sound, with regard to mics! (it certainly doesn't hurt to have a drummer with a little understanding of the studio environment either. . .But, IMHO, a well balanced kit, with good cymbal choices are key


I was using a smaller kit, with some thinner single ply tom and bottom heads, 8" 10" 12" toms, and a 18x14" kick, and wow! those toms just reached out and grabbed you!!! No bad overtones or unwanted resonance. . , at all!

The cymbals that I was using have a little dark undertone, and dry, . and that REALLY helps, . especially using a condenser overhead-- But since it was an LDC rather than a SDC, I think that helped keep those shinny high end cymbal sounds that you sometimes get with condensers-- toned down a bit.

Anyway, you may not agree with my evaluations, and this method might not work for a lot of people,. But, I found that the mono drum sound worked well for me, especially, with the type of kit I was using.

Thanks again for ebverones input, . .especially Harvey G, .

Later guys. . .

 

[Richard Monroe]

I can currently get MC012's out of Guitar center for $60 apiece, with just the cardioid capsule, and I've picked up a few for some people around here.
And Paj- having dealt with Taylor Johnson at The Sound Room and owned a pair of his mics, his testing of the mics is repetitive, redundant, and gnat's ass rigorous. They are checked and double-checked. I know no one more passionate about mic matching. And while matched mics are really unecessary for drum overheads, when you need them for acoustic guitar or remote classical stereo recording, they will simplify the hell out of your life.-Richie

 

[Paj]

Sound Room

And Paj- having dealt with Taylor Johnson at The Sound Room and owned a pair of his mics, his testing of the mics is repetitive, redundant, and gnat's ass rigorous. They are checked and double-checked. I know no one more passionate about mic matching. And while matched mics are really unecessary for drum overheads, when you need them for acoustic guitar or remote classical stereo recording, they will simplify the hell out of your life.-Richie

Richard,

Thanks---I also had that verified from a variety of sources. I had one third-party pro claim that their T.H.E. SDC may be the the best available, bar none.

No argument about matched pairs for the remote stuff but you have piqued my curiosity about the acoustic guitar criticality. What problems(s) have they remediated/alleviated? Care to share?

Thanks,
Paj
8^)

 

[Richard Monroe]

Well, Paj, I think the image created by a stereo pair can be like a realist painting, or like an MC Escher drawing. A stereo pair in coincedent or binaural arrangement can replicate what the 2 ears of a real listener in a room with the instrument hears, or- Say you have one mic on the 12th fret and one over the right shoulder pointing down at the upper bout, or across the bridge.
While this may produce very pleasing sound, nobody's two ears are really in those two places at the same time. It's like that MC Escher drawing. You can draw it, but it's impossible to build in the real world. And you could use 2 very different mics, which is like being born with 2 different ears. I have the problem of being deaf in one ear, so "stereo" is a theoretical construct to me, like Phil Specter. I have to "see" the stereo image, because I cannot hear it. Starting with 2 mics that have identical output at any point in the audio spectrum lets me know at any given point whether the left and right signals are the same strength or not. Then when I pan them, I'm actually "watching" the signal move in acoustic space.
I've come to believe that almost no one, except a few golden-eared musicians and AE's, hear with enough precision to balance the 2 stereo signals precisely by hearing alone. In a worst-case scenario, one mic has a dip in a certain frequency range, while the other has a peak at the same point, and as the output varies from left to right, it's like the stereo picture is jumping around the stage, and the MC Escher painting changes into a Salvadore Dali with a melted watch. Now, it's not only not possible in real acoustic space, but it has become *wrong*- instead of a fantasy, a nightmare. There's a fine thin line between the 2.
If 2 mics have consistent output across the audio spectrum, but a difference in output, it's no big deal, you can compensate by adjusting input gain. If one zigs where the other zags, stereo imaging becomes an impossibility. It will sound like some kid is playing with the channel faders. Someone with more technical knowledge and 2 ears can probably explain it better.-Richie

 

[Big Kenny]

I don't think anyone could explain it better Richie. I got a matched pair of mk012's and one had less output than the other. I was ready to take 'em back and rag. After giving one a little more "juice" I realized they sounded phenomenal and that frequencies ran right along with my acoustic Taylor. I also stopped doing the over the shoulder thing. While it sounded kinda cool and different, after a while it just became distracting and annoying

 

[Paj]

Thanks

Richard,

Synesthesia aside, sincere thanks for taking the time for the the reply. I believe that matched is better than not but I understand why it is so critical in the approach you mentioned. It does lead me to another question: What advantages have you found with you method over, say, panning a blended mono signal in the stereo field?

Paj
8^?

 

[Richard Monroe]

Paj, the answer is that your two ears don't hear the same thing. If a guitar amplifier is on your left side, the sound reaches your left ear first. Your brain interprets that (isn't it amazing what the brain can do?) to mean that the source is on your left. Then the sound bounces off a wall (or not), and by the time it takes to do that, your brain knows how big the room is, and what shape it is. If you pan a mono signal hard left and right. there's no room and no direction. If you have a delay that's good enough, you can delay one of those signals and fool the brain into thinking the source is coming from the left or right. It's not how loud the signal is, but how long it takes to get there that is the key. Unfortunately, you cannot really put delay on the echo only, so even with sophisticated digital imaging, the room is kind of dealt out of the equation. Also, when the real echo comes back on both of your panned mono tracks, that acoustic information will be likely to be inconsistent with the delay, and you have just created that MC Escher room, or maybe Salvadore Dali. You may also have created standing waves and phase distortion. Stereo recording is simply easier and simpler with 2 nearly identical mics placed in real acoustic space.-Richie

 

[Paj]

re:

Richard,

Thanks for sharinging your insights and experiences with your technique, and yes, psychoacoustics is just plain amazing and fascinating. It's amazing what some genes can do for you while even the best efforts of the mind go awry---we recently witnessed acoustic arguments here in Philly, switching from the venerable Academy to the new Kimmel Center, and no expense was spared.

Thanks again for sharing your insights on mic technique.

Paj
8^)

P.S.: BTW, the Philly Orchestra went with API analog for mix---I haven't got a line on the mics yet.