Ok, sampled drums SUCK !

In the proper hands you cant tell much difference.
Drumkit from Hell has an ambient set you can mix in with the original that are ambient samples of the same strike for that particular velocity.
This one is with DFH and DR-008 without any ambient mic mixed in yet. I think it sounds super-beleiveable. I need to work on the tom builds and stuff, and get the ambient mics mixed in.
www.nowhereradio.com/sternum/singles SONG7 is the one...
 
tubedude said:
In the proper hands you cant tell much difference.
Drumkit from Hell has an ambient set you can mix in with the original that are ambient samples of the same strike for that particular velocity.
Yes, seriously, if they're done right, you just plain can't tell the difference. Given an option, I'd always go for WELL-programmed, GOOD sampled drums, as one always has more control and more options. You'll get a better shot at major-lable sound with the "fake" stuff in the typical home studio. A lot of major-label, major-bucks, mainstream "rock group" recordings are all keyboard/synth and a singer these days simply for that control factor.

Here's a bottom-line piece of advice: In home-studio product, always err on the side of "too slick" sound and production rather than not slick enough. Whoever you're producing this stuff for - whether it's an A&R guy or some bored leech on MP3.Com - will always be impressed simply because the production and engineering doesn't sound like the same stupid garage demos that industry people (like I was) have been sending to landfills by the ton after eight seconds of listening - for thirty years, at least.

Nobody cares whether it's a real drummer or not. They only care how the product sounds.
 
I recently just heard two samples from Drumkit from Hell, they're not half bad...(They're on the Drums and Percussion board)
 
FattMusiek said:
I recently just heard two samples from Drumkit from Hell, they're not half bad...(They're on the Drums and Percussion board)
I'm going to be giving DKFH and some other higher-end consumer drum software a look shortly and will see what I think.

If you just want to take a test drive with any of this stuff to see if it's for you, you can always hit eMule and doink around with the versions there before buying retail. It's all there.
 
bongolation said:
Here's a bottom-line piece of advice: In home-studio product, always err on the side of "too slick" sound and production rather than not slick enough

obviously, this is sort of a philosophical point, but i have to totally disagree with this statement. i would give the exact opposite advice. err away from slickness and side with interesting.

it depends an a fundamental aspect of songwriting and home production. i think you have to ask yourself--- let me take two singer songwriter examples here--- would you side yourself with the elliot smith model or the john mayer model?

if you like elliot smith, follow my advice.

if you like john mayer, follow bongolation's advice.

let me ask another question are you:

1. recording at home as a means to eventually record in a "real" studio so that you could make "real" music. or

2. recording at home because you want to make "real" music?

both perfectly valid pursuits. i have reversed the order here: if you agree with number 1- go with bongolation. if you agree with number 2, go with me!

and, here i am being intentionally opinionated, if any of you are in the john mayer/1 camp YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU ARE MAKING BAD MUSIC!
 
Again it's just a matter of taste, and as eeldip said, both are equally valid standpoints.

Myself, I like to stand somewhere in between, something that sounds good and somewhat polished but that it has originality and soul.

I don't believe in "black or white" for artistic standpoints.

MHO

:)
 
flapo1 said:
Again it's just a matter of taste, and as eeldip said, both are equally valid standpoints.
No, they're not.

As someone's personal preference, any view is as irrelevant as anyone else's. As a strategy, however, indifferent production and engineering is plain suicide, from the second you start a project anyone else but you is going to hear.

I've been having this same argument for thirty years with people whose music is never going anywhere.

Production (in the broad sense, including arrangement) and engineering are hugely more important than the artist, the material and even marketing. People don't believe this because great production and engineering are almost undetectable, and the act gets all the credit.

Bad production and engineering are like filth and crud on a window which obscures everything you want to see. It strangles even the best performance. Musicians, in their egocentricity, think that people are going to listen to a bad recording just to experience the amazing music. They won't. Sometimes they won't even know why they turn it off either, but they do anyway. Trust me, if people have heard good engineering and production, they won't listen to bad engineering and production.

Even really raw acts cannot survive bad production. That's the sign of a really great producer, getting the vitality of a young act captured and processed in a way that sounds like it just spontaneously happened...but the trained ear can hear that the "spontaneity" is almost all brilliant production - it just sounds like an incredible one-take masterpiece by an inspired band. Even in the unlikely event that a band really is that good, the producer has to be even better to catch it perfectly.

Bad production may also be homogenous, sterile, unimaginative or inappropriate for an act, too. I can think of plenty of careers that croaked solely because of a wrong - not bad - producer for the job. I can even think of an entire genre - Country - that nearly killed itself off through the stifling, unimaginative overproduction of that sickening "Nashville Sound" that made all artists sound alike.

Presentation is everything in music, and that means that you need to produce and engineer a piece appropriately to the artist, material and market (this is where eeldip and I agree) but - above all - to the prevailing professional minimum standards of the industry.

The reason I say that a garage act's home studio recording should err on the side of slickness is simply as a judo move against the pervasive expectation that it's going to be the naive, sloppy junk that everyone's come to expect of small-time project recording.

Once you get the contract, you can get the high-$$$ producer who can give you true state-of-the-art rawness that will knock everyone out.:D
 
i pretty much agree with everything you say, great discussion.

let me continue with the interesting vs. slick comparison. (you went into this a bit with your talk of technically good, but inappropriate engineering)

the case of using sampled drums in a traditionally live drum genre (rock, country, punk, etc) is perfect for this comparison.

sampled drums are going to sound more "slick". they were recorded "slickly" at a "slick" studio. however, by using sampled drums you compromise performance and musicality--- two very important aspects of music (at least some genres). in that sense you are adding "grime" to the material.

i would say that performance and musicality add "information" to music--- and by cutting down on these elements by using sampled drums played mechanically you add "grime". the intended product, the song as a whole, is more difficult to hear. so in a sense, using samples and increasing slickness and audio fidelity- is "indifferent" and lo-fi production. indifferent to the song, to the music, to the art.

so i say: down with indifference! up with compromised, lower-fidelity recordings of real instruments, played by musicians who love making music!

[edited for the usual spelling errors]
 
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Bongolation has a FAT discussion going on here. I totally agree and have been preaching same for years. The microphone in a shoebox dirty guitar sound will kill any desire I had to listen to aa piece of music. I hate the average demo that comes out around here, and even if the bands are great live, they dont have a chance with a crapball demo.
Thats one reason I've been so busy l;ately is becuase I have been getting cleaner sounds than a bunch of the really expensive studios around here.
Also, if I sit behind a kit, I am playing them mechanically, right? Or not?
Same as playing a keyboard... all the human influence is there, is it not? As long as I dont jerk everything to a grid and I use multi sampled kits with varying degrees of actual velocity changes and stuff, what is the real difference there? Not much, really. Not much. As a matter of fact, I think I can play keyboard drums better than a lot of the drummers I know around here with real kits. :)
YMMV, as long as we are all happy with our results then we are all happy. Ya know? I like having a real drummer too, though. But when I dont, I still do. :)
Peace.
Paul
 
"But, If I do not have a drummer, what is a songwriter to do ????"

Get a drummer! Christ, you're on one of the biggest recording boards in the world! My personal conclusion is- I would rather suck than live in a world of synthetic sound. So if I suck, so be it! Well Rimshot's played a bunch of stuff for me over the last 4 months. Some of it sounds a bit confused, some of it is- brilliant. But it's all human, in your face, right here- now. And I love him. I wouldn't trade the worst human musician in the world for the best cybersubstitute.
Yes, I understand that advances in the science of digital sound will, sooner than you think, be able to reproduce the *sound* of Pavarotti or Pablo Casals, Andre Segovia, or Jimi Hendrix. They won't create the genius that is steeped in the mechanical execution of the playing. The actual physical playing of the instrument is the "wax on, wax off" of music, it creates the master. I am always turned off by canned drums, even when I have to listen for a while to be sure it's not just a boring human drummer. I believe in microphones.-Richie

P.S. If you *really* can't find a drummer, start with a small hand drum, like a doumbek or small djembe. Teach yourself to play percussion. Isn't that what multi-tracking is for? Who told you you can't play drums?
 
i think y'all are kidding yourselves with these sequenced sample drums "sounding" as good or in some cases "better" than real drummers.

or again this could just be an audience/genre issue.

let me go back to john mayer. when i listen to his record, all i hear are drum samples. here he is singing with some degree of passion about something or other (can you tell i hate him?) and there is this fucking snare in the background that is just dragging him down cause it sounds nothing like a real snare (my guess- soundreplacer is the villian here). now we arent talking about NIN style music... this is a guy who is presenting himself as a "real deal" kind of guy, making "real" music for people who love "real" music (clear channel approved!).

but if you are into this sort of music. fuck yea! play those samples. you can sound just like john mayer! just tell me the name of your band ahead of time so i dont have to listen to you (i think in the end you will net more listeners with this approach then you lose, so take my advice with a grain of salt)

my favorite drum recording is louie louie. best sounding, best performance. best song. etc. give that drum recording a good listen. it is amazing. blows me away. essence of a "rock" recording. no way in hell you can do that without a drummer.

and i suppose all of you in the sample camp think that guided by voices have total shit recordings... as flapo1 says, all a matter of taste... because they certainly succeed as musicians. in that they can pay the bills, get great critical reviews, have lots of rabid fans... have inspired countless musicians...
 
OK, here is a listening excercise (thanks tubedude for posting this!):

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=2914/singles

check out song7. done with "the drumkit from hell".

the music is in a style where it is fairly common to have acoustic drums trigger samples, so it doesnt sound all that bad. although the cymbals sound pretty false to me.

the feel is a little stiff. a bit off... but again, sort of normal for the genre.

so what do y'all think of it? are the drum samples helping?

personally, in this case i think a hybrid approach would be good. mix in some real hats and cymbals. and i would process the drums more to give the slightly mechanical feel a slighly mechanical treatment. there is plenty of this kind of music that is done with drum machines. i would aim to make it an interesting mix of acoustic and samples--- harder to pin down. i would break out a real snare as well for some of the breaks. those build sections (the breaks that crescendo back to the other parts) sound a bit funky to me. layering a real snare in there would help them out a bit.

quite a bit of work...
 
I just picked up the Backbeat series from Spectrasonics. They sound great. And I fucking despise programming drums. It's just not practical for me to do it any other way.
 
eeldip said:
OK, here is a listening excercise (thanks tubedude for posting this!):

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=2914/singles

check out song7. done with "the drumkit from hell".

the music is in a style where it is fairly common to have acoustic drums trigger samples, so it doesnt sound all that bad. although the cymbals sound pretty false to me.

the feel is a little stiff. a bit off... but again, sort of normal for the genre.

so what do y'all think of it? are the drum samples helping?

personally, in this case i think a hybrid approach would be good. mix in some real hats and cymbals. and i would process the drums more to give the slightly mechanical feel a slighly mechanical treatment. there is plenty of this kind of music that is done with drum machines. i would aim to make it an interesting mix of acoustic and samples--- harder to pin down. i would break out a real snare as well for some of the breaks. those build sections (the breaks that crescendo back to the other parts) sound a bit funky to me. layering a real snare in there would help them out a bit.

quite a bit of work...


The file isn't there...
 
I think some of you guys are just a bit too critical. Why ? Because your musicians. The average non-musician does'nt give a rats ass if its DFH or a set of DW's...as long as it sounds good to them all is well. I use DFH frequently. Im a drummer so it comes rather easy. When my friends listen to a song me or my band have recorded, they know no difference in the drums.
 
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