smellyfuzz
New member
But, If I do not have a drummer, what is a songwriter to do ????
Sean
Sean
Ok, sampled drums SUCK !
- Thread starter smellyfuzz
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Disposable
New member
I actually got a really good soundfont set
if your soundcard works with soundfonts...
You can download it form here...
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/
if your soundcard works with soundfonts...
You can download it form here...
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/
eeldip
New member
personally, i wouldnt stoop to using sampled drums to sound like real drums. they always sound stupid to me.
i say--- work around it. if you want beats, use a drum machine that sounds like a drum machine. plenty of singer-songwriter style music that uses a lot of electronics.
if you want to stay away from that sort of sound (you want to make more acoustic sort of music), play the drums yourself! not too hard to learn. you can get a set of crappy drums from some guy in a want ad for $300 or so.
or just buy some sticks and find stuff that sounds interesting. no rule that you have to use a trap set to get a beat going. ---mic the front porch and stop away--- clap your hands. i heard this south african postal workers song done entirely with postal stampers and claps and feet and whistling and singing and scissors-- all done while processing mail... no drums there but it was incredible. (although it will sound strange if you are making traditional rock music to NOT use a traditional rock drum set).
i say--- work around it. if you want beats, use a drum machine that sounds like a drum machine. plenty of singer-songwriter style music that uses a lot of electronics.
if you want to stay away from that sort of sound (you want to make more acoustic sort of music), play the drums yourself! not too hard to learn. you can get a set of crappy drums from some guy in a want ad for $300 or so.
or just buy some sticks and find stuff that sounds interesting. no rule that you have to use a trap set to get a beat going. ---mic the front porch and stop away--- clap your hands. i heard this south african postal workers song done entirely with postal stampers and claps and feet and whistling and singing and scissors-- all done while processing mail... no drums there but it was incredible. (although it will sound strange if you are making traditional rock music to NOT use a traditional rock drum set).
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Good advice from Eeldip. When I have to use sampled drums on an organic sounding production I'll usually just stick to kick and snare and add real percussion like tamborine and shaker to liven it up.
Stealthtech
LOGIC ABUSER
Depends on what your using....smellyfuzz said:
If I sent you a song I've done with Drumkit from hell or Discrete drums, I bet you could'nt tell a difference....Why ? Because they are samples of real drums. Now using electronic and fabricated drums is another story...do not and will not use those.
flapo1
New member
Real sounding drums depend basically in 7 points:
- Good samples
- Samplers that have layers
- Good programming (knowing how a drummer plays)
- Use of velocity (so you can take advantage of layers)
- Slight imperfections (pushing/pulling tempo, not-so perfect hits, etc.)
- Use of several patterns for "normal" rhythm
- Use (discretely) of rolls
It IS possible to have real sounding drums with your recordings even if you are not a drummer and/or don't have drums
- Good samples
- Samplers that have layers
- Good programming (knowing how a drummer plays)
- Use of velocity (so you can take advantage of layers)
- Slight imperfections (pushing/pulling tempo, not-so perfect hits, etc.)
- Use of several patterns for "normal" rhythm
- Use (discretely) of rolls
It IS possible to have real sounding drums with your recordings even if you are not a drummer and/or don't have drums
eeldip
New member
flapo1 said:
to that i say Bah!
now if you mean "real sounding" as in "sounds like songs on the radio" i would believe you. not much real drumming there (after the sound replacer and the editing i would call it "hyper real drumming"). want to sound like blink 182? use samples.
but real drumming? stick noises, sypathetic skin and snare resonances, breathing noises, squeeks? things that make drumming sound like it is an instrument that is played by a human? (think fretnoise, or breath thru a wind instrument)
no way. and if you could do it... what would be the point? it would be so much harder than just going out and playing it!
bongolation
New member
The problem with bad-sounding MIDI drum tracks is merely that people who don't know how to program them are using really cheap kits. It's that simple.
There are a lot of good software drums that are indistinguishable from "live" drums except that they sound better.
It's a fallacy to think you're going to get an acceptable sounding drum track from $300 PennySaver drums in the average home studio's acoustic environment with the average home studio microphones and the average home studio engineer. Never mind if you're not a real drummer when you start.
I play drums, but I would never consider going through this hassle and waste of space to get an inferior sound. Better to play "Drum Kit From Hell" or another quality acoustic drum soundbank through a MIDI controller or MIDI drum interface.
You'll have far more control over the results.
There are a lot of good software drums that are indistinguishable from "live" drums except that they sound better.
It's a fallacy to think you're going to get an acceptable sounding drum track from $300 PennySaver drums in the average home studio's acoustic environment with the average home studio microphones and the average home studio engineer. Never mind if you're not a real drummer when you start.
I play drums, but I would never consider going through this hassle and waste of space to get an inferior sound. Better to play "Drum Kit From Hell" or another quality acoustic drum soundbank through a MIDI controller or MIDI drum interface.
You'll have far more control over the results.
bongolation
New member
> If I do not have a drummer, what is a songwriter to do ?
Supposedly, Groove Agent is designed just for this situation.
I haven't tried it, but will in the next couple of weeks. Should be interesting.
The demo .MP3s sound pretty convincing.
Note that the Jazz piece is Groove Agent, The Grand and Trilogy. No "real" instruments involved at all.
Supposedly, Groove Agent is designed just for this situation.
I haven't tried it, but will in the next couple of weeks. Should be interesting.
The demo .MP3s sound pretty convincing.
Note that the Jazz piece is Groove Agent, The Grand and Trilogy. No "real" instruments involved at all.
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flapo1
New member
eeldip said:
Eeldip:
No, I don't want to sound lik Blink 182.
Under the circumstances, and the QUESTION ASKED (what's a songwriter to do then?) I stated my opinion. Maybe I should rephrase: You can get CONVINCING drum tracks with the points I sposted before.
If I'm a songwriter who can not play drums, or doesn't have access to a quality kit or a quality drummer, then probably the ONLY way to go is to use samples and/or soundfonts.
So the point would be... be able to put a convincing drum track in your songwriting demo. I'm not talking about bands in professional studios, we're talking about a certain situation in which smellyfuzz asked a simple question.
So please, when you decide to answer in such a rough manner, read the WHOLE thread.
eeldip
New member
flapo:
didnt mean to sound so ruff there. just opinionated. and i stick by my opinion.
i agree with you that you can get "convincing" tracks from fake drums. when i do electronicy music i use drum samples all the time. most people cant tell in any surface level way that the drums are "fake". but the dead on beats communicate a dance and electronic feel that sound "right" to most people. in this sense the drums are convincing.
[on the other hand, sometimes a really amazing totally "on" drummer-- example: sebastian from trans am-- can come off as a drum machine. but since this compliments their style of music, his drumming makes a very compelling performance]
and yea, lets get back on track: what is a songwriter to do? well, i say: it is a very valuable trait in a songwriter to have at least a passing familiarity with as many instruments as possible. learning drums will make you a more well rounded songwriter. so i say learn them. (unless your "thing" is to make your drum arrangements sound like they are NOT played by a drummer).
also, i totally disagree with the idea that it is better to have hi-fi sampled drums that are a little mechanical and not 100% real sounding, then it is to have lo-fi sloppy but real sounding drums.
again, it depends on genre here, but for the most part i would way rather hear a compromised genuine drum performance then a step sequenced hi-fi mechanical drum part.
anyway, this is a very interesting subject.. no?
didnt mean to sound so ruff there. just opinionated. and i stick by my opinion.
i agree with you that you can get "convincing" tracks from fake drums. when i do electronicy music i use drum samples all the time. most people cant tell in any surface level way that the drums are "fake". but the dead on beats communicate a dance and electronic feel that sound "right" to most people. in this sense the drums are convincing.
[on the other hand, sometimes a really amazing totally "on" drummer-- example: sebastian from trans am-- can come off as a drum machine. but since this compliments their style of music, his drumming makes a very compelling performance]
and yea, lets get back on track: what is a songwriter to do? well, i say: it is a very valuable trait in a songwriter to have at least a passing familiarity with as many instruments as possible. learning drums will make you a more well rounded songwriter. so i say learn them. (unless your "thing" is to make your drum arrangements sound like they are NOT played by a drummer).
also, i totally disagree with the idea that it is better to have hi-fi sampled drums that are a little mechanical and not 100% real sounding, then it is to have lo-fi sloppy but real sounding drums.
again, it depends on genre here, but for the most part i would way rather hear a compromised genuine drum performance then a step sequenced hi-fi mechanical drum part.
anyway, this is a very interesting subject.. no?
flapo1
New member
It's cool, eeldip.
Anyway, I for the most part agree with you: as much as samples are good or even excellent, it would never sound exactly the same as a drummer because drummers (as all humans I know) are imperfect and as you said you can capture nuances you could never get with samples.
That's why I gave smellyfuzz some tips to approach to what a drummer can do closer. (use layered samples, "create" imperfection on time, etc... it's all in my first post).
I'll use myself as an example: I have a decent grip for drums, I even think I could play in a band if I wanted, but I can't follow a click track very well, and also get lost in the songs while playing to nothing but the click. So what I do is to program drums in FruityLoops and record all the other stuff so I can have an approximation of what it will sound.
If I like the song, then I retrack anything I need and THEN go with a real drummer so he can put the real drums instead the computerized ones. But sometimes even this guy (the drummer)has told me that he can't tell a lot of difference between real and fake drums.
On a side note, with al due respect for those bands, I play nothing resembling Blink, Linkin Park, Creed, et. al. My favorite bands are Beatles, Pink Floyd, Queen, so you get the idea, right?
So, see? Both stances have pros and cons. It depends on what you want to do.
Anyway, I for the most part agree with you: as much as samples are good or even excellent, it would never sound exactly the same as a drummer because drummers (as all humans I know) are imperfect and as you said you can capture nuances you could never get with samples.
That's why I gave smellyfuzz some tips to approach to what a drummer can do closer. (use layered samples, "create" imperfection on time, etc... it's all in my first post).
I'll use myself as an example: I have a decent grip for drums, I even think I could play in a band if I wanted, but I can't follow a click track very well, and also get lost in the songs while playing to nothing but the click. So what I do is to program drums in FruityLoops and record all the other stuff so I can have an approximation of what it will sound.
If I like the song, then I retrack anything I need and THEN go with a real drummer so he can put the real drums instead the computerized ones. But sometimes even this guy (the drummer)has told me that he can't tell a lot of difference between real and fake drums.
On a side note, with al due respect for those bands, I play nothing resembling Blink, Linkin Park, Creed, et. al. My favorite bands are Beatles, Pink Floyd, Queen, so you get the idea, right?
So, see? Both stances have pros and cons. It depends on what you want to do.
eeldip
New member
true enough. certainly fake drums are great place holders. great way to get your song DONE. flushed out. when you are laying down ideas, you dont want to slow down the process.
although the electronic drum place holder solution raises another issue: when to use a click track? if there is one thing that bugs me is when a rock song uses a click track...
example: there is this terrible new cover of that old mediocre don henley song... that deadhead sticker on a cadillac song. uhh. boys of summer i think it is called. anyway, a "punk" band covered it (the ataris i think) and did it with a click track. when they play it they hit the chorus and what happens? same speed as the verse. locked on a click.
very un rock and roll, especially with a song that raises the intensity with the chorus. it should be faster! (like all the other rock songs) the click track has a physcoacoustic effect of making the chorus sound SLOWER. totally shitty. total letdown.
since you are into floyd have you heard "the madcap laughs". great record. the "band" played over a recording of syd playing acoustic guitar with a very... uh.. special sense of timing. all over the place. but what a great record. sounds amazing.
i would take this as a great example of what a singer songwriter should do. can you imagine "the madcap laughs" with a click track?
of course, again.. it all depends on genre.
although the electronic drum place holder solution raises another issue: when to use a click track? if there is one thing that bugs me is when a rock song uses a click track...
example: there is this terrible new cover of that old mediocre don henley song... that deadhead sticker on a cadillac song. uhh. boys of summer i think it is called. anyway, a "punk" band covered it (the ataris i think) and did it with a click track. when they play it they hit the chorus and what happens? same speed as the verse. locked on a click.
very un rock and roll, especially with a song that raises the intensity with the chorus. it should be faster! (like all the other rock songs) the click track has a physcoacoustic effect of making the chorus sound SLOWER. totally shitty. total letdown.
since you are into floyd have you heard "the madcap laughs". great record. the "band" played over a recording of syd playing acoustic guitar with a very... uh.. special sense of timing. all over the place. but what a great record. sounds amazing.
i would take this as a great example of what a singer songwriter should do. can you imagine "the madcap laughs" with a click track?
of course, again.. it all depends on genre.
flapo1
New member
To have a conclusion (IMHO):
- If you have the means (good drummer, at least regular drumkit, at least a couple of good mics), go for the real drums everytime.
- Sampled drums (good quality, and sampled from a real source) can help lay down ideas and/or make convincing demos
- It all depends on the style.
BTW eeldip, isn't madcap laughs a Syd Barret's solo album? Of course I could be wrong
- If you have the means (good drummer, at least regular drumkit, at least a couple of good mics), go for the real drums everytime.
- Sampled drums (good quality, and sampled from a real source) can help lay down ideas and/or make convincing demos
- It all depends on the style.
BTW eeldip, isn't madcap laughs a Syd Barret's solo album? Of course I could be wrong
Those samples of GrooveAgent sound pretty fake to me. Nobody who's heard a few jazz albums would think that was a real drummer.
The real problem with sampled drums (and I use them often, so I run into this too) is room ambience. Every time a sample plays, room ambience plays with it, even for stuff that is close-miced, but especially for stuff that is room-miked, like cymbals. So when you have five or 6 drums playing or decaying at the same time, you have a whole bunch of room ambience going. But as each drum jumps in or jumps out, the level of room ambience varies. And sometimes there is very little room ambience at all. This is subtle, but detectable, and it makes things sound unreal to even the casual listener, because our ears are trained to hear a certain way from all of the time we spend in non-anechoic three-dimensional space. Some drumkits try to adjust for this by including "ambient" miced samples that you can mix with the close-miced samples, but again, the same problem of layering occurs, with the "space" multiplying and jumping in and out of the drum track.
So I guess this is a long-winded way to agree with you, that yes, sampled drums do suck.
Since I bought my real drums, and invested in a meager recording space, by drum sound has jumped by leaps and bounds. And I can say that without hesitation, even though the recorded soundsI get are nowhere near as polished or crisp as the sounds from something like DFH. Because it still sounds unmistakably real, and even if I programmed identical patterns and minutely timed all the hits to line up with a real drummer's feel, the ambience would still say "fake."
The real problem with sampled drums (and I use them often, so I run into this too) is room ambience. Every time a sample plays, room ambience plays with it, even for stuff that is close-miced, but especially for stuff that is room-miked, like cymbals. So when you have five or 6 drums playing or decaying at the same time, you have a whole bunch of room ambience going. But as each drum jumps in or jumps out, the level of room ambience varies. And sometimes there is very little room ambience at all. This is subtle, but detectable, and it makes things sound unreal to even the casual listener, because our ears are trained to hear a certain way from all of the time we spend in non-anechoic three-dimensional space. Some drumkits try to adjust for this by including "ambient" miced samples that you can mix with the close-miced samples, but again, the same problem of layering occurs, with the "space" multiplying and jumping in and out of the drum track.
So I guess this is a long-winded way to agree with you, that yes, sampled drums do suck.
Since I bought my real drums, and invested in a meager recording space, by drum sound has jumped by leaps and bounds. And I can say that without hesitation, even though the recorded soundsI get are nowhere near as polished or crisp as the sounds from something like DFH. Because it still sounds unmistakably real, and even if I programmed identical patterns and minutely timed all the hits to line up with a real drummer's feel, the ambience would still say "fake."
P
Phyl
Guest
smellyfuzz said:
Like others have said, we really need to know what aspect of sampled drums you don't like. Is it the sound library you're using, the sterile, perfect tempo, lack of dynamics...?
When I came to this msg board a year ago there was an excellent thread giving step by step instructions on how to make sampled drums come alive and sound very much like the real thing. The steps went something like this (I think):
1) Compose your drum track on a single MIDI track.
2) Use a small amount of randomization or quantization - I forget the correct term - to get drums feeling real, like an actual person played them.
3) Split each drum (bass, snare, cymbals) to a separate midi track.
4) Record each drum with no effects.
5) Apply EQ to and reverb to each track as necessary.
The thread went into a lot more detail, I'm sure I missed something.
Surely some of you old timers remember this thread, it was highly praised and hung around the top of the forum for quite some time.