Not new to this, but still can't get good sounds..

  • Thread starter Thread starter ZoSo58LP
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ZoSo58LP

ZoSo58LP

rock guy
Okay guys so I haven't been here in a while. I've been recording for maybe 8 years now.

my gear has gotten better over the years, but I still can't get a sound I'm happy with. Here's the mic's I've got:

Shure Sm57
Sennheiser e609 Silver
3 AKG Emotion D770's
cheap Nady mic (used for a tom)


Here's other equipt:
Samson 8 Channel Mixer (with basic Low/Med/Hi EQ and Bass Cut switch)
ART TubeMP mic preamp


So, I use the SM57/Sennheiser on my Marshall JCM2000 cab. I can NEVER EVER get a good sound with the SM57 that I'm happy with. It always sounds waaay too tinny and doesn't sound anything like my amp. However, my new Sennheiser gets me a pretty close sound to my amp!

Where should I put these mics, generally? I put the Sennheiser on the bottom left speaker, and tilt it a bit until I get all of my freqs in there. I'll put the SM on the top right speaker now that I've got the Sennheiser. Should I record with BOTH of these? Or just one at a time? My TubeMP has the ability to reverse the phase of the mic plugged into it; what exactly would that do?

Micing drums doesn't sound that great for me either. I don't use the SM57 on my snare anymore; I use an AKG. I put the SM on the highhats to get a crisp sound. I use the sennheiser through the preamp in my kick, and I throw another AKG overhead behind me to pickup my cymbals and floor time, while I've got a cheap Nady mic on my other tom. Any other ideas for this setup?


I'm just generally unhappy with my recordings; they seem to be too bland/muddy for me.

I use Adobe Audition, it's an old version....maybe I should find something new?

My mixer only goes into my computer as Mono, so stereo recording isn't available since none of my soundcards are stereo in's :(

any ideas?? Thanks guys!
 
Are you asking how to improve with what you have...or are you asking for other options?

I've never much cared for 57s' on guitar cabs and I don't particularly like the 609 either...they're both kinda' lacking in body or depth...though can be perfect for a certain kind of sound.

I like to mic cabs back 2-3 feet...and for that, a condenser is better to capture the full spectrum from a distance.
If you want good body and to get away from the thin sound...a ribbon is the best for a guitar cab, IMO.
I've been promoting the Cascade Fat Head II mics for awhile now. I love them on guitar cabs.
They are on the dark side compared to what you get with a 57...but they sit in the track really well without too much EQ muss-n-fus… unless you are planning to do 50 guitar layers! ;)

After eight years...you either have the wrong gear or you've not explored enough options with what you do have....or both.
Lots of guys get great guitar tones with 57's...so it's not impossible...but remember it ain't just the mic that gets you the great tone!!!
 
Line out

You have a sweet Marshall and cant get good sound!? Atrocious :) I have an old Peavey with a sextet of 6L6's in it and I use the line out and it helps re-produce the natural tone of the tubes into my recordings. Maybe that will help you? I have never had the priveledge of playing through a Marshall but hopefully it is similar in that the line out will help you access the tone that the Marshall is famous for.
 
ZoSo58LP said:
I'm just generally unhappy with my recordings; they seem to be too bland/muddy for me.
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Sounds like a monitor problem. You probably can't hear the mud at the time of recording. After that it is too late. What are you listening through? How is the room?

I can almost certainly say it is not a mic or software problem.
 
If you are using the two mics have you tried flipping the phase? You say your pre has that function, but then you ask what it will do...Sounds like this is the problem. Most thin tinny amp sounds with two mics is the result of phase problems. Either that or you're trying to record with too much gain or distortion and what your ears are hearing is not the same as what the mics are picking up. Mics dont have selective hearing. They only reproduce what you're asking them to. So more than likely its the phase, mic placement, or too much gain/volume in an unprepped room.
 
miroslav said:
..you either have the wrong gear or you've not explored enough options with what you do have....or both.
Lots of guys get great guitar tones with 57's...so it's not impossible...but remember it ain't just the mic that gets you the great tone!!!
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Yes here. Basic stuff first- the source, tone, mic position etc. Presuming here that is the issue, then finesse'.
 
hey guys, thanks for the great replies!!

well, to me the sound isn't great. here's a few clips/songs I did pre-e609 days, when I used simply a shure SM57:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2dkvuocczgy (a song called Insane lol i wrote it yeaaars ago, just finally recorded it recently. running an '89 USA Strat through the JCM..single coil lace sensors)

http://www.mediafire.com/?mumju0hajof (a song simply called Oct 10th. this is me running my fatstrat through my JCM with a marshall guvnor before it for some slight gain, and a boss OC3 for the octave punch in the riff. a tiny Orange Micro Crush amp was also mic'ed for the bridge. sloppy drums, but hey i'm not a drummer lol)


as for phase switching, maybe I have to read up on it. because when i do flip the phase, it sounds even TINNIER when i mix the e609 and sm57...anyone care to give me layman's terms for what phase switching really does?

Also, i'm guilty of not having monitors. i'm really guilty of having such an amateur setup actually; even after all the money thats gone into my gear! i use some crappy headphones :( they're probably 6 years old. i know, this is a huge NONO! but i also record onto a crappy desktop computer...that's probably going to be upgraded soon

i guess money is somewhat of a factor...but for what i've got, what else can i do without spending really anything?
 
ZoSo58LP said:
as for phase switching, maybe I have to read up on it. because when i do flip the phase, it sounds even TINNIER when i mix the e609 and sm57...anyone care to give me layman's terms for what phase switching really does?
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Think of a sound drawn visually as a squiggly wave line. When you flip the phase, every peak that was above the center line switches to below, and vise versa. Say you have two mics that are pretty close to being "in phase". The peaks above the center line on mic 1 occur at pretty much the same time as the peaks above the center line on mic 2. Now you flip the phase on mic 1 and mix it back in with mic 2. Positive (above the center) peaks on mic two are now adding with negative (below the center) peaks on phase-flipped mic 1. The total adds up to be close to zero...quiet and thin.



Also, i'm guilty of not having monitors.
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That's your problem. 100% gaurantee. The best room, mic, and guitar in the world are all useless without monitors. It's like taking the best paint, putting it on the best paint brush, and applying it to the best canvas... with the lights turned off.
i also record onto a crappy desktop computer...that's probably going to be upgraded soon
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Not really that big of a problem. If it records, it does what it has to do. Get some monitors before touching that!

i guess money is somewhat of a factor...but for what i've got, what else can i do without spending really anything?
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Go to a yard sale and get some $5 speakers if you have to. Anything in a nice solid cabinet with at least some semblance of full range (meaning not small cubes + woofer box). Anything at all is better than nothing/headphones. At least you will have a fighting chance.
 
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so headphones aren't really good for it? i awlays figured they were so you could get your exact nuances/tone while checking levels and stuff.

i've got so many old cabinet speakers from the 70's etc that were parts of old 8tracks and radio systems! (channelmaster! haha) but I don't think they're RCA outputs...some are bare wire


i recorded this today as my first song using the sennheiser e609 (used it on all guitars, and bass mic'ed the cab along with straight through from the head, and used it on the kick for the drums)

also used my tube MP preamp

http://www.mediafire.com/?wkdkzjiwyjd

guit tones sound a bit tighter/more solid than my previous examples, no?
 
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ZoSo58LP said:
so headphones aren't really good for it? i awlays figured they were so you could get your exact nuances/tone while checking levels and stuff.
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The problem with headphones is that they take the room completely out of it. Even a great room is going to do something to the sound. If your music is not "ready" for the physical realities of bouncing through air, something will go wrong. Almost always it comes out sounding dull and muddy.

Headphones are great for editing. Not so much for tracking and mixing. Emphasis on tracking. Obviously the performers can and should track with headphones. I'm talking about the engineer here. He must track while listening through speakers.

i've got so many old cabinet speakers from the 70's etc
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There you go! Get yourself an amp if you don't already have one and hook 'em up! Word of warning: You need to study them before starting. Take your favorite pro recordings, play them through the final setup, and sit in the mix position and just listen. No TV or anything. As many hours as you can spare. This goes for any speaker - pro monitor or not.
 
Great! I'm going to have to give that a try...just sucks when you're both the performer AND musician lol...a one man band is hard, especially when trying to track drums and get down the correct levels!
 
ZoSo58LP said:
just sucks when you're both the performer AND musician lol...
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Do you mean "performer and engineer"? :D Because yes, that sucks. Recordings of my own playing always come out worse than recordings I make of other people. Kinda' impossible to play a guitar, move a microphone, AND listen on a monitor speaker all at the same time! It's like trying to play a video game by shouting instructions to somebody holding the controller in a different room.

Other people performing = I track exactly the sound I need

Me performing = Fumble around with a lot of back n' forth and end up needing massive EQ correction anyway
 
whoops! im retarded lol


yeah, it is such a paaaain.

how do you guys feel about post-recording EQ's? like such as the EQ's that are in Adobe?

I messed around a bit with EQ'ing the guitars when I recorded a cky instrumental cover:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kzmlmunjmy3


notice how different the guitar sounds from my previous new song. this is all sennheisers, too. i'm wondering if i should really look into EQ'ing more? then again, what's a good way to EQ for rock guitar?
 
Wow I'm impressed with your recordings with the minimal setup you have to work with! For rock guitars I usually cut the lows a lot because there's nothing that's worth hearing in your mix down that low and either boost the low mid range a bit or the high mid range. This is very dependent upon the bass tone. Sometimes it's better to cut low mids on the guitar because it sounds bad with the bass etc.

To start out, you can try boosting the 1khz-4khz area a few dB to really make a distorted tone up front or make a clean tone shimmer. EQ can help a guitar track out quite a bit sometimes. But your tones are not really bad the way they are now. I only have combo amps to work with.
 
cool! thank you. i'm definitly going to read up a bit more on EQ'ing I think....perhaps that's what can clean my sound up a bit...

if anyone's got any other EQ tips, throw them at me, because i'm all for hearing them!
 
micing the cab

I don't know if you do this but....set the 57 right on the mesh of the cab right off center of the cone. SLightly angled. Then when yu record, you really need to push the amp. the 57 is a workhorse and likes a hot signal. Set the Sennheiser a few feet away aimed right at the cone. You can try hitting the phase on one pass then not hitting it to A/B the difference. yes, headphones will screw you up trying to mix. If your cab has two speakers, mix it up. try different configurations. Make sure the tubes are good and hot before you start recording. Don't try to capture both speakers with just the 57. Close micing is what you should attempt. If you have a compressor, especially stereo, run both mics through them and push the "gain reduction to between -10-12 bd's then go ahead and push the output gaqin to where it's shoving that signal out. that will really beef up the tone and bring out subtleties you're not hearing. Remember, our ears have built-in compression and that needs to be recorded for playback. The compressor will help/
 
ZoSo58LP said:
... I messed around a bit with EQ'ing the guitars when I recorded a CKY instrumental cover:
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that's very cool. it's probably the 1st CKY cover I've heard. CKY guitar tones are unique and you did a descent job of capturing the CKY jive.
 
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