No more Jazz!!
- Thread starter moresound
- Start date
Link is not opening for me, but if I am guessing right, someone is making noise (and I do mean, NOISE) and perhaps trying to make a name for him or herself by claiming jazz is a white racist word. (About 35 years ago,I recall seeing, written on a bathroom wall, "BOY is a white racist word. Eliminate it from your vocabulary." For some reason, my little brother and I found that to be incredibly funny.)
IMO, the less said about that non-issue, the better. Regardless of it's origins, the word and the music that is "jazz" is simply not racist, today. If somebody wants to get all Angela Davis about something, they might make more headway on a subject that actually matters, today- like the disparate way the "war on drugs" is waged more on black folks than white. Ignore that idiot, so he will go away that much sooner.
IMO, the less said about that non-issue, the better. Regardless of it's origins, the word and the music that is "jazz" is simply not racist, today. If somebody wants to get all Angela Davis about something, they might make more headway on a subject that actually matters, today- like the disparate way the "war on drugs" is waged more on black folks than white. Ignore that idiot, so he will go away that much sooner.
That's right Steve the racist card being played yet once again. Here is some of the write up.
Since the last Race and Jazz column, the first of a multi-part discussion with John Gennari—the top scholar on the history of jazz criticism—a firestorm of controversy has arisen surrounding Nicholas Payton's declaration that, to him, the word jazz is dead. He also feels that the word jazz is tantamount to or worse than the "n" word—n1gger—and that the best and most descriptive umbrella term is Black American Music: BAM.
We'll continue sharing our conversation with Professor Gennari soon, but first I'd like the All About Jazz audience to digest and respond to this piece. The scholarly dialogue with Gennari is crucial because it provides helpful historical context and background for such heated situations as the one this article addresses.
Nicholas Payton, highly skilled on a variety of musical instruments, is one of the best contemporary trumpeters, and was even perhaps the best of his generation playing what he now calls (at least for 90 days) the "j" word. And I believe, as fellow black writer Willard Jenkins put it, that Payton is "speaking the truth as he believes it." I also agree with Jenkins' point that no one stole jazz from black folks, and lament the miniscule number of audience members from the cultural group of its origin at jazz events.
So, before getting back to the conversation about the history of jazz criticism with John Gennari, I'm going to, as author of this Race and Jazz column, give some reflections on and responses to the hullabaloo.
As master saxophonist, composer and arranger Jimmy Heath mentioned at a recent event at the Visitor's Center of the National Jazz Museum in Harlem, he's been hearing that jazz is dead or dying for over 60 years. 1959—the last year Payton says "jazz" was cool—is most certainly a high point in the production of classic jazz: Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, Charles Mingus's Ah Um, Dave Brubeck's Time Out, and Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come were all released that year, and John Coltrane was working on Giant Steps. Yet to claim that a form in which a plethora of musicians played, a host of fans listened to, and buckets of ink were typed in periodicals devoted to the music, was virtually or symbolically or actually dead after 1959, is obviously inaccurate. But since it's a provocative statement that elicits discussion, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
And jazz, as I and many others conceive of it, is a music that certainly should be placed under the banner of Black American Music. Jazz is one of the musical branches that sprang from the cultural production of native-born black folks in the United States. However, I don't think it prudent to stop there and make BAM the be all and end all term. To jettison the word "jazz" completely, not to mention equating it with the "n" word, is, in my estimation, not wise.
Regarding the latter, n1gger was a term used to maintain the lie of white supremacy and black inferiority. "n1gger" and the racial caste system that supported its wide usage against black Americans were used to subjugate minds and oppress bodies, to deny freedom and keep "them in their place," and to scapegoat black folks as lazy, shiftless, hypersexual, unintelligent, and as the cause of the nation's ills.
It's highly doubtful that terrorist white racists used the word "jazz" as a term of ultimate derision when lynching Negroes, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those bastards thought and scowled the "n" word while committing such murders. Furthermore, the meaning and connotation of jazz has changed several times over the course of the 100+ years of its existence. And though it may be true that the image of jazz musicians as drugged-out outlaws of society still has some currency today, I'd speculate that those who weren't conditioned into the view that jazz is lowbrow or the devil's music likely don't think of it in such terms. In fact, many consider jazz as akin to a classical music, and beyond their grasp. (Hence the expression "Black Classical Music" or Dr. Billy Taylor's often quoted declaration that jazz is "America's classical music.") Considering the course of European classical music, this is problematic as regards accessibility and popularity, but my point is that many people now think of jazz as "high" instead of "low."
Since the last Race and Jazz column, the first of a multi-part discussion with John Gennari—the top scholar on the history of jazz criticism—a firestorm of controversy has arisen surrounding Nicholas Payton's declaration that, to him, the word jazz is dead. He also feels that the word jazz is tantamount to or worse than the "n" word—n1gger—and that the best and most descriptive umbrella term is Black American Music: BAM.
We'll continue sharing our conversation with Professor Gennari soon, but first I'd like the All About Jazz audience to digest and respond to this piece. The scholarly dialogue with Gennari is crucial because it provides helpful historical context and background for such heated situations as the one this article addresses.
Nicholas Payton, highly skilled on a variety of musical instruments, is one of the best contemporary trumpeters, and was even perhaps the best of his generation playing what he now calls (at least for 90 days) the "j" word. And I believe, as fellow black writer Willard Jenkins put it, that Payton is "speaking the truth as he believes it." I also agree with Jenkins' point that no one stole jazz from black folks, and lament the miniscule number of audience members from the cultural group of its origin at jazz events.
So, before getting back to the conversation about the history of jazz criticism with John Gennari, I'm going to, as author of this Race and Jazz column, give some reflections on and responses to the hullabaloo.
As master saxophonist, composer and arranger Jimmy Heath mentioned at a recent event at the Visitor's Center of the National Jazz Museum in Harlem, he's been hearing that jazz is dead or dying for over 60 years. 1959—the last year Payton says "jazz" was cool—is most certainly a high point in the production of classic jazz: Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, Charles Mingus's Ah Um, Dave Brubeck's Time Out, and Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come were all released that year, and John Coltrane was working on Giant Steps. Yet to claim that a form in which a plethora of musicians played, a host of fans listened to, and buckets of ink were typed in periodicals devoted to the music, was virtually or symbolically or actually dead after 1959, is obviously inaccurate. But since it's a provocative statement that elicits discussion, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
And jazz, as I and many others conceive of it, is a music that certainly should be placed under the banner of Black American Music. Jazz is one of the musical branches that sprang from the cultural production of native-born black folks in the United States. However, I don't think it prudent to stop there and make BAM the be all and end all term. To jettison the word "jazz" completely, not to mention equating it with the "n" word, is, in my estimation, not wise.
Regarding the latter, n1gger was a term used to maintain the lie of white supremacy and black inferiority. "n1gger" and the racial caste system that supported its wide usage against black Americans were used to subjugate minds and oppress bodies, to deny freedom and keep "them in their place," and to scapegoat black folks as lazy, shiftless, hypersexual, unintelligent, and as the cause of the nation's ills.
It's highly doubtful that terrorist white racists used the word "jazz" as a term of ultimate derision when lynching Negroes, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those bastards thought and scowled the "n" word while committing such murders. Furthermore, the meaning and connotation of jazz has changed several times over the course of the 100+ years of its existence. And though it may be true that the image of jazz musicians as drugged-out outlaws of society still has some currency today, I'd speculate that those who weren't conditioned into the view that jazz is lowbrow or the devil's music likely don't think of it in such terms. In fact, many consider jazz as akin to a classical music, and beyond their grasp. (Hence the expression "Black Classical Music" or Dr. Billy Taylor's often quoted declaration that jazz is "America's classical music.") Considering the course of European classical music, this is problematic as regards accessibility and popularity, but my point is that many people now think of jazz as "high" instead of "low."
mshilarious
Banned
I used to hate jazz, but now I like jazz. I still hate Kenny G though.
Listen to "Venus" until it makes sense. That has never happened to me yet, but I still keep trying.
Listen to "Venus" until it makes sense. That has never happened to me yet, but I still keep trying.
chrisghost
New member
If jazz is Black American Music, then what is Blues, Soul, Rhythm and Blues, perhaps Rock 'n' Roll etc. etc.
But besieds that:
I used to hate jazz too...
As I am a music junky, at one point I made a real effort to get to know it, which is the key, I really love (some of) it now.
Moresound, that minor 7th chord is a bit of an oversimplification, but they tend to use more complex chords (4 á 5 differents notes in a chord) yes.
In jazz, like in any music, most bands are crap and some are truely great.
But besieds that:
I used to hate jazz too...
As I am a music junky, at one point I made a real effort to get to know it, which is the key, I really love (some of) it now.
Moresound, that minor 7th chord is a bit of an oversimplification, but they tend to use more complex chords (4 á 5 differents notes in a chord) yes.
In jazz, like in any music, most bands are crap and some are truely great.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
dumbest thing I ever heard of. No way jazz is a pejorative .... especially since no one hardly even uses the word or listens to the music anymore.
As for those who 'hate' jazz but can't understand it ...... that's mostly a matter of the level your playing is at right now. As you get better you'll be able to understand it and will not hate it even if it's not your preference.
I'm a pretty skilled jazz player but it's not what I like best. I'm more of a rock guy.
But an awful lot of the rock players you love (regardless of genre or era) like and are influenced by jazz.
As for those who 'hate' jazz but can't understand it ...... that's mostly a matter of the level your playing is at right now. As you get better you'll be able to understand it and will not hate it even if it's not your preference.
I'm a pretty skilled jazz player but it's not what I like best. I'm more of a rock guy.
But an awful lot of the rock players you love (regardless of genre or era) like and are influenced by jazz.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
And as the blues sprang from the slaves in the south a couple of hundred years ago, maybe that should now be called "The Blacks".
chrisghost
New member
By that you imply that if you're not a musician you can't like Jazz, which can't be true.
It's probebly just a matter of your ears being attuned to it. I suspect most people who're into Jazz are brought up with it.
chrisghost
New member
"The Blues" actually imply blue demons.
It was some kind of hybrid African belief that when you're your sad, demons are pestering you, these particular ones are blue.
There are very old wall paintings in the south of Europe with demons with all kinds colours, possibly there's a link, also with christian culture where the devil's red.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Blue demons, red devils . . . it get's very confusing!
I woke up this morning,
I fell out of bed,
I got a hell of a hangover
I got the reds.
It don't sound right either.
I woke up this morning,
I fell out of bed,
I got a hell of a hangover
I got the reds.
It don't sound right either.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
well ...... all the people in this thead are players and that's who I was talking to.
Of course non-musicians can like jazz and do ..... but it's same thing really ............ they have to 'learn' to listen to it ..... that's what getting your 'ears attuned to it' is ..... a learning process.
Very few children gravitate to jazz as their first music preferences .... they need simpler stuff to start out with.
chrisghost
New member
I'll let you in on a little secret, it's all myth, so you can dismis the whole thing.
Feel better now?
chrisghost
New member
Talking a about BAM... I weird band I like developed an astonishing instrument called BAM (batterie automate midi), :
Check it out: BAM- Rosa Crux drummer - YouTube
Check it out: BAM- Rosa Crux drummer - YouTube
