no $ for monitors, mix w/headphones?

[Be Loveless]

I can't afford decent monitors. I usually judge my mix somwhere between my headphones(hd280's) and my optimus lx5. This is adequate, but just adequate. PRO/CON of trying to mixing with just headphones? Why to? Why not? What brand if any might suffice?

 

[chessrock]

I know Bluebear is going to be around to post it anyway, so I figured I'd beat him to the punch:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/bvaleria/bluebear/articles/headphones.htm

 

[masteringhouse]

I know Bluebear is going to be around to post it anyway, so I figured I'd beat him to the punch:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/bvaleria/bluebear/articles/headphones.htm

More good advice from BB ...

 

[shackrock]

just get like your home stereo system, that is even better to mix on then with headphones. sure, check your mixes/edit with headphones, but don't rely on them for accurate mixing.

 

[helyfede]

Don't mix with headphone....only check in headphone..

 

[noiseportrait]

Even the cheapest Walmart stereo will be better for mixing then headphones. Use the headphones as a reference only.

 

[Be Loveless]

Okay? "Only use them to reference" "Only use them to check" Well if I check and reference my headphones and find something to be corrected and I do correct it.......then I'm mixing with headphones. So in other words you are all saying to mix with headphones in addition to my speakers, like I said I was doing in the first place. And noiseportrait that is not true, the first thing that I had to mix on was RCA box system purchased at wall mart, it sucked.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Don't use headphones to make any important sonic decisions. Period. Use them to check noise levels or distortion that may not be heard as easily through monitors in certain cases.

So no, you DON'T want to be mixing with them. Judging from your last post, I take it you didn't actually read the article Chessrock posted link to????

 

[Be Loveless]

Hey there four question marks. Yes I did read the link and understood it and everything Mr. Blue Bear Mine Fuer sir, but I thought that some of the replies I've been recieving were slightly in conflict with the information in that article. Maybe this is just semantics but if you are using the phones to check for noise or anomolies or whatever and adjust accordingly then you ARE mixing with headphones. For example I know that my speakers lie about bass, they don't speak the language sooooo If my ears get bombarded by bass frequencies in the headphones....guess what?.....I turn the bass down a little. When I finally hear my mix on other systems...guess what? it sounds fine. Yes it may be a bit unorthadox but it sometimes serves me well, at least until I can afford better monitors. Is that alright with everyone.
Don't worry I have abandoned the concept(Idea,notion,I was only asking a simple QUESTION in the first place) of mixing EXCLUSIVELY with headphones. CHRIST?!@#@!!!!

 

[something cool]

What you need to consider about mixing w/headphones is that you're not getting a true sense of space. When you're mixing with headphones, you're really mixing FOR headphones. You have the sound source right up next to your ears, so you're not able to get a true stereo sense of what your mix sounds like ... you can't step back and see what it sounds like, or turn your head slightly to the left, or take in to account reflections (I know you don't really want to hear reflections anyway ... but it's a factor), etc. etc. Remember that most people listening to your music will be listening to it on actual speakers in crappy-sounding rooms. Plus, if you happen to be mixing with some basic consumer-level cans (i.e. my Sony MDR-V250s that I'm stuck mixing with at school), they LIE. My last project sounded GREAT in my headphones, perfect levels, just phenominal and full ... bring the mix home to some home theater speakers, and YUCK! The mids disappeared and all I was left with were some really loud drums. Can it be done? Of course. Learn where the cans lie, take into account the lack of "air," you'll learn to cope with it, just like you could eventually learn to cope with $10 computer speakers from radio shack .... do you really want to, though? I'm not saying you need to go blow $1000 on some real high quality monitors, but given a choice between regular speakers or headphones, I'd take the speakers. Again, mixing with headphones is really mixing FOR headphones.

EDIT: Just read BB's headphone FAQ, basically what I was trying to say and then some, and I can definately attest to the "mixed in cans vs. mixed w/monitors" principle. Good article.

 

[Be Loveless]

Like I said, I read it. I get it. It made sense to me. It is not infallable. There are always other ways to do things with Good results. Moderator kindly terminate this thread.

 

[kylen]

Be Loveless - you've been judged, hehe

It gets a little hard putting the full context of what you're thinking in a thread sometimes, eh?

In my case - I'm moving - and I've had to tear down my monitoring setup and am now 100% in headphones. I do remastering of stereo mixes using Senn HD600 (open air) and Beyer DT770 (closed back). I can probably do 50% of the work in there now that I've had to get better at it - or do nothing...

My substantial remaining problems are:
1. Adjustment of the stereo field
2. Setting Dynamics
3. Reverb/Ambience settings
4. EQ balance

To try & make up for #4 I use a Behringer DEQ2496 61 band Spectrum analyzer along with its' rms/vu metering. Also GlissEQ2 has a very good RTA spectrum that helps. I spent a lot of time correlating the spectrums of favorite reference material to the sounds when I had my monitoring & acoustic materials set up.

So after all that I can get 50-60% there but I really hate being in the cans all the time. I think when I get my monitoring set up at my new place (Dynaudio BM6A - I believe) I will use headphones more and switch between the speakers, open air, and closed back equally. Each one kind of gives me a different microscopic view of the material.

Also doing it that way gives your ears a break, like neutralizing your pallate after a sip of wine. I don't really like listening at 85dBSPL or thereabouts for too long so that's another thing - adjusting monitoring sources and SPL levels seems like a better fit for me. Or I could sell the car and get a set of Adam S3's, hehe

 

[Be Loveless]

Kylen, thankyou (yes it does feel like I've beenJUDGED sometimes) that is the type of response I've been looking for. Compromise for situations that are not ideal. Thats kind of what I'm doing now switching back and forth, listening outside the room ( thats how you hear music at a party when you first walk in right), changing my body position, and finding the middle ground. I have an old BSR spectrum/EQ that I once used to even out a pair of junk speakers, you should have seen the unruly mob on that thread, and it worked better for me than the speakers alone did. Of course, according to the Blue Bear Party, thats impossible and should never be attempted. --thanks for not burning me at the stake

 

[kylen]

Hey - glad to talk audio with ya Be Loveless...I haven't been around here too long, some of the old timers get a little cranky after repeating themselves a few hundred times you've noticed.

I think at first a lot of us start out willing to share tips and talk shop but depending on how weather-worn a topic is finally it just comes out - 'don't do that stupid'...hehe Sometimes I'll just skip a thread if it's buggin me too much - like how many times do I want to know that Yorkies are the best moniter in the world, hehe.

There are some good folks here - from newbies, to DIY garage level (me!), to prosumer, to pro level. Some of their output sounds mighty fine too !

Even though this place is called homerecording.com it is less of an experimenting place like you've noted, at least in the mixing/mastering forum - there are rules to be followed by folks in the know as a lot of these guys own project & pro studios at some level. Having said that though there are lots of experiments happening in the mp3 forum - just give a listen ! I experiment as well as follow conventional processes myself - I'm sure you do too...

Anyway - Im excited about getting my new mastering room set up in the 'near' future. Having set one up already I'll incorporate what I've learned and make the next one better - working in headphones has helped me get some perspective too - actually I don't think I was using them enough. Moving around, hallway listening, switching nearfields, mains, headphone types, SPL levels - yep I do all that too. Each different monitoring device gives a little different perspective due to their differences, all the better - it allows you to shine a flashlight on a different piece of the music. They're just some of the tools of a DIY garage journeyman - I'll put anything up on the rack and try and tweak it !

Lot's of times we can do a pretty decent job ! Case in point - have you heard the new 'radio-ready' JET CD 'Get Born' that's been squished to within 6dB of it's life ? Hehe - I hope they didn't waste their money on high-$$$ preamps and converters to make that thing !

 

[Be Loveless]

Have'nt heard but yeah I actually have a few posts up on the mp3 forum
or.......you can check me out at www.soundclick.com/thebluehumours our newest, and I think the best results yet, tune is "Ghost". I am intending to go to recording school in the fall so I have an appreciation fo the standard procedures but I also believe that there is always another way to do things. I have friends who have turned out acceptible demos just by jumping back and forth between two beat up cassette decks. There is never just one way to do ANYTHING. No rule is absolute.......................talk to you soon.

 

[kylen]

That's the spirit !

 

[mixmkr]

I mix with headphones all the time. Sometimes I like the results and sometimes I don't. I feel I have a decent handle on what the headphones are telling me, and I like using the ubiquitous Sony MDR7506 as they are actually pretty similar to my favorite monitors that I currently use...Jbl4311's.

I personally don't worry too much about what others say you can do and don't do, as I have been using headphones for things other than tracking for over 30 years, and haven't found them to be limiting...just the "rules" that others seem to think. Of course those "rules" are also agreed upon by some industry heavyweights, but that's their opinion...not mine.

So...the pros VS the cons of using headphones... listen to your results and make your own assessment.

 

[chrisharris]

PRO/CON of trying to mixing with just headphones? Why to? Why not?

See, I think it may have been the "pro/con of trying to mix with JUST headphones" part that compelled people to make you change your evil ways, lmao. Anyway, I pretty much mix like you do (cans first...then check on air...tweak, check...tweak...throw some shit against the wall...tweak...check in car, check on home stereo...monitors...slam fist...)....

Anyway, I'm with mixmkr here...some of my best recordings (according to others...and believe me, "best" is really relative with me) have been mixed on cans. The biggest cons I can think of for me personally are distorted stereo imaging (which is no biggie since I pretty much pan by numbers now anyway) and vocal levels - this one IS a big deal, b/c almost without exception, whenever I check one of my headphone mixes on the monitors, I end up turning the vox down about 5db, lol.

Anyway, it looks to me like the meat of your question was probably related to what kind of headphones to use. People will obviously disagree with me, but I don't think it makes a flying fuck what brand you use...as you probably already know, the most important thing is to be VERY familiar with WHATEVER brand you're using. (same thing goes with monitors). I listen to a whole buncha' music with the same closed back headphones that I mix with, and that obviously helps.

Oh, and relax...it's not like anybody called you a cocksocket or anything, lol.

 

[Be Loveless]

Thank ya'l l very much for your open minded responses. I can't wait to see what shit I'm gonna catch when I go to recording school in the fall.