Nice Mic Pre's or Decent Board?

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Aguilar

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i'm trying to determine whether I should purchase a decent board (for monitoring, and to a lesser extent to use it's preamps) or whether I should use that money to purchase a nice set of preamps.

I currently use a small mackie live board (CFX series) mainly to monitor the various signals to and from my CPU setup. I've been able to get by quite well using the preamps on that board, but before anyone can take me seriously (so to speak), I must upgrade. To my credit, I've taken my work to get mastered at very reputable mastering facilities and they have even complemented the sound.

The big question is whether all instruments are typcially preamped with top-notch preamps. For example, are the drums and such all preamped with avalon/neve/ua preamps, or are only the vocals and key instruments given the luxury of those preamps?

Key Questions:

1. Would my setup better benefit from acquiring something like mackie 8 bus? That would arguably be an improvement in preamps for all instruments, as well as the obvious routing/monitoring improvements over my little mixer.

2. If I were to opt for a stereo mic pre setup, would I use those for all my instruments? Would I, for example, use that on the overheads of my drums, all my guitars, and my vocals?? Or are these higher end units intended to be used on one type of source per unit, i.e, can't use the unit used for vocals on drums???

My setup: Cubase SX/Echo Layla/Event monitors/Shure/Rode/Sennheiser/Neumann...

Thanks.

P.S. I've been trying to get my password reset for two weeks now...i had to create this user name to be able to post...I'm moelar2, in case anyone knows the moderators....
 
If your on a tight budget and want the most for your money get a Soundcraft M12 or M8. Those have some very nice pres and you get 8 or 12 of them. You'd have to spend $1000.00 for a better pre and you only get 1 or 2 channels. The Soundcraft is far better than the Mackie
 
I was looking at the Soundcraft Ghost board. I've heard very good reviews on it. It's suppose to have superior pre's and eq's compared to the mackie. I'm not huge on Mackie, but I am able to appreciate the board and frankly don't think its as bad as some have described it.

Nonetheless, I think that I will be going with Soundcraft. So, if my budget is about $3500, your recommendation is still go to with a mixer rather than a set of nice pre's?

Its likely that I will look into purchasing the 24 channel version of the Ghost.
 
Aguilar said:
Nonetheless, I think that I will be going with Soundcraft. So, if my budget is about $3500, your recommendation is still go to with a mixer rather than a set of nice pre's?
Click to expand...

NO!

I would say you'll be much better off putting your money into some nice outboard gear. Keep the Mackie for your routing purposes. Unless you are actually mixing down on the board there's no need to upgrade it.

What kind of music do you record? and what sort of sound are you after?
For $3500 (I'm assuming that's USD?) you can update your whole front end. ie. 2 channels of high quality preamps AND AD conversion.

As for putting everything through the same pre's, well you're doing that now! Everything is going through the Mackie. And if you get a Soundcraft, everything will go through that. Obviously you won't find a single preamp that with shine on every application, but any quality preamp will certainly do a more than adequate job (read better than Mackie and Soundcraft) on anything you throw at it.
I only have one quality preamp, a Buzz Audio which is totally clean and transparent, and there's nothing that sounds less than really good through it. Yes, I could get better results if I had a rack full to choose from, but not many of us have.

I'll go check out some prices..........
 
Well, I have recently realized that the preamps I kind of want would cost me more than a Midas Venice 1608, which not only has nice Midas preamps, but also pretty good EQ, and a direct out for each channel, so I will be getting one of those one of these days soon. Now, if I was talking about using a Mackie or getting good preamps, I would much prefer the preamps.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
OK
Prices obtained from Atlas Pro Audio website.
I have no affiliation with them. It was simply the easiest place to look.

Firstly, I suggest a Mytek Stereo96 AD converter for $950.
(Pristine AD conversion regarded as better than Apogee)

Now for preamp choices.

Buzz Audio MA2.2 $1899 (super clean, transparent and fast)
Chandler TG-2 $1730.00 with PSU (Recreates the classic Abbey Road pres.)
Great River MP-2NV $2150 (Neve 1073 clone)
Great River MP-2 $1600 (clean)
Vintech 1272 $1350 with "gain" and "air" mods (Neve 1272 clone)

That's just a few... There are heaps more like API, Millenia Media, John Hardy, Brent Averill etc. etc.

Man, if you are getting compliments with your Mackie pre's, then your work will shine with any of these.
 
It depends on what you can budget for. You could sink 4 or 5 grand into a Ghost, and walk away with one helluva nice board that would probably cover 90% of your tracking situations, and 99% of your routing situations.

Or, you could sink 4 or 5 grand into a handful of really nice pre-amps, and come up short when you're tracking drums, but have enough of a variety to handle a wide range of other situations, but end up lacking on the routing possibilities.

Personally, (if I didn't already have a a lot of outboard pres) I'd start off with the Ghost, and add just a few specialty pres later as I could afford to.
 
Michael Jones said:
Personally, (if I didn't already have a a lot of outboard pres) I'd start off with the Ghost, and add just a few specialty pres later as I could afford to.
Click to expand...

I'd agree here as well.

for me, I'm a singer,songwriter,pianist,drummer. so I'm not setting up a studio designed to record other folks. the pre's and mics were all purchased for ME! (my voice, my drums, my room, my music, etc)

My best pre is the great river ME 1NV and then the RNP. those get all my crucial overdubs vocals, stereo acoustics/keyboards, bass, overheads, etc. my Rane MS-1B, DMP-3, Mackie 1202vlz, and dbx376 are mainly used for the remainder of my drum kit (I track about 11 channels of drums) I use a digi001 with RME ADI-8 Pro a/d d/a converters.

If I hadn't comitted to individual pre's, I would have rather done a quality board with the eq options, bought a bunch of RNC (Real Nice Compressors $150.00 each) and all my drums and return mixing/routing would've been complete. then something like my 1 or a two channel GR ME-1NV would be my main vocal pre....I guess other options could be something like the yamaha 01v96 (digital board) might've worked via adat/lightpipe, but I'm not so sure those mic pre's are anywhere near a quality analog board.

good luck!
 
I would get a board with lots of pres before I started buying outboard pres. I spent a grand on my Davisound and I thing I would have been better off spending that upgrading other parts of my setup. My room for example.

I sure couldn't hear a thousand dollar difference. ;)
 
$3500 should be able to get you into both a small Midas and a decent preamp. I have run many Midas, Soundcraft, Allen Hetah, Yamaha and yes, even Mackie boards. In my opinion (especially for the low price tag) the Midas smokes em all. The EQ and mic pre sounds amazing, especially given what they will cost you. The big thing to remember when buying a Venice is that it costs less because they have scaled back primarily on features and build style. It isn't modular for one (but neither is a Ghost or a Mackie), and it has short throw faders (60 mm instead of 100 mm). Also, there is no per channel phase or pad (or line) switch, the HPF isn't sweepable and the power supply is internal. All that said, I find it to still be an amazing bargain and probably worth twice what you pay for it (10 times if you judge it by sound quality alone).

On a side note, I have a Chandler TG2 and it rocks!:D
 
One point that is worth noting: when doing your work in the box, an inherent problem is when it comes to summing (in Pro Tools parlay we call it "bouncing") or stemming. In other words, pre amps aside (only for a moment) the ability to run your multi track sessions through a multi channel board then back to your two track offers another reason to go for the board. I agree that the Midas is untouched for pre amp quality. It's a FOH board but man, GREAT pre's. I have heard that the new scaled down Midas has the same pre's as there top shelve boards (hard to believe but worth the note). In order to track ONLY drums correctly (in my opinion), you'd need 5 or 6 really good pre's. Do the math. Sell the Mackie, hell, sell your pre's if you have to and your mixes should benefit greatly from the ability to run your mixes through even this low cost Midas. IF you haven't used one, you won't believe how great they sound. Plus, it is a bit of a "wow" factor for your customers to see a board, any board almost other then the Mackie (no disrespect to them, I just never thought of Mackie and Pre amp in the same conversation before). Good luck! JD
 
I would second third wherever I fall) the Soundcraft Ghost. You are getting some killer pres and you need a mixer anyway. The Midias gets my vote too. You can always add a some nice pres down the road for vox and what ever.
 
The Soundcraft Ghost is still a good way to go, or even an Allen Heath GS3 or 3000. However, if you can live with the routing and features that the Venice offers, its certainly worth it. If you need traditional studio style (inline) routing opitons and more than 6 aux sends and 4 busses, the Ghost is a good solid way to go. If you just want sound quality than neither the Ghost or the Allen Heath Imentioned will even come close to the Venice.

I am not completely sold on the Venice having the same preamps as the Midas XL4, or even the Heritage 3000. In fact, I am not sure they actually say that. The "topology" may be the same, but I would imagine they are still a little different. That said, think of the comparison. 24 channels Venice.....approx $3800, 48 channels XL4, approx $95000 ($110000 if you want moving faders and the case with spare power supply and little lights). The venice, in my opinion, offers a great bargain. Sadly, the company I work for can't afford a Heritage or an XL4, but we do have a few Venices , and a 56 channel Verona on the way.
 
I dunno, I still think a board is a waste. I went down that road myself with an A&H Mix Wizard and found it to be a waste of money. (my situation, not the board)
But that's just my situation. I do all my mixing, processing, fx and summing "in the box" and I found that many different preamp colors suited my needs better than lots of preamps of the same color.

So if I was in your shoes I'd keep the Mackie for tracking drums, and put my money into 2 high-end channels for everything else.

Or for that money you could get 2 Sebatron VMP400e's or a JLM TMP-8 and end up with 8 very nice outboard channels. But then you're back to having everything one flavor and may as well go for the Ghost or Midas. :p

But look, that's the great thing about forums like this. Everyone has some advice based on their own experiences, and it's then up to you to decide what suits your situation best. There really are no wrong answers here.

Good luck with you decision
 
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Not to high jack... but I'm in the same situation as moelar2. w/ pretty much the same setup SX/Layla24/Event 20-20p/Shure,Rode,Oktava,SP/

8 months ago I was going to do a overhaul and make a step up from my All in One Aardvark to a Lynx 2, Sebatron & RNP/RNC. For financial (medical) reasons I ended up w/ a Echo Layla24, a Sytek, 2 RNC and a little Soundcraft F1 for monitoring and it has 6 pres. The whole lot cost me $1500 and I'm fairly content.

What I'm wondering is how do the Sytek Pres compare to say a Allen and Heath Mix Wiz 16:2? (or Soundcraft M12) Are they no question superior, or just marginaly better?

I'm getting more bands that want me to record em which was not my intent (so soon). I could add another 8 channels real easy by selling my Sytek and getting a MixWiz and another Layla 24. Or just wait for the day that I could get a Sebatron 4000 & Layla24. I think the Seb and Sytek will go good together.

Thanks,
B.
 
I already answered, but here's what I'm using:

4 Vintage Audix 35012's w/ onboard EQ. (Think API pre meets Neve EQ)
6 API 312's
2 API 550b's
So there's 10 slicker than owl shit channels.

Yamaha O1V with 16 OK-but-not-so-hot pres.
1 dbx 286a (pre/gate combo)
1 ART Pro MPA (Dual Channel Toob mic pre)

I run Nuendo 2.0
16 channels of Steinberg AD/DA
8 channels of AD conversion through the O1V
Fed by the Nuendo 96/52 audio card
5 channels of Event 20/20 bas's for surround.

So, I've got some pretty decent pres, some nice AD/DA conversion, decent monitors and a locker FULL of mics that.... I wont even get into.
But you can see, where I'm really, really lacking is in routing capabilities. The O1V is a poor excuse for routing, so I don't really even use it except as a control surface for Nuendo. But with Nuendo, and 16 chnls of DA, I can route INTERNALLY fairly well, the problem is in EXTERNAL routing, where a board would be ... well much more intuitive.

Now, I could NEVER get rid of the pre's I have, but I think I went about it kind of backwards. A nice board, like a Ghost, would have been just a fantastic backbone for the gear I have now accumulated.

If I had known then, what I know now, I'd have gotten the board first.
But I think I'm just going to add some more outboard pres, and get a nicer control surface.
 
Nice setup Michael. I'm jealous ;)

But what gear do you have that needs major outboard routing?
 
Aguilar said:
Nonetheless, I think that I will be going with Soundcraft. So, if my budget is about $3500, your recommendation is still go to with a mixer rather than a set of nice pre's?

Its likely that I will look into purchasing the 24 channel version of the Ghost.
Click to expand...

The Ghost seems like overkill for what you will apparently be using as a monitoring mixer. You don't mention anything about mixing on the board, so I assume you are mixing in the box.

If that is true, then upgrading your front end will have a bigger effect on improving your sound than upgrading your monitoring mixer. I find the difference between boutique preamps and the preamps found in project studio mixers to be pretty dramatic.

I use a Grace 201 and am completely happy with it. I've compared it to the preamps on a number of boards, including a Neve, and given the options available have always chosen the Grace. A preamp like the Grace will totally smoke the preamps in a Ghost, Midas, Mackie, or Soundcraft board, no contest. Likewise, I would expect preamps like the Great River, Millenia, and the others mentioned by Markd102 would also provide a similar quality boost.

If you want to talk pure sound, upgrading the preamps and converters will provide the biggest improvement. A mixer might provide studio ease and quantity of preamps, which is certainly valuable, but as far as the pure quality of sound will not be up as high.
 
There are of course many ways of looking at the situation, like so many above have stated. Personally, everyone has different ears. There are a lot of enigineers out there who would choose the Neve in a heartbeat over the Grace. However, that doesn;t make the Neve any better than the Grace or any other preamp. There are certain general classifications that most of us accept, but in the end it only matters what we hear and what we like.

There would be not even a hint in my mind that if I were doing an album, I would surely take a Midas only instead of a Grace 201 and a Mackie. My only reasoning is that I would rather have 16 solid preamps with 16 excellent EQ's, than a Mackie full of what I consider "bland", not bad, but noit good either preamps. Then there is the whole EQ thing concerning Mackie consoles. I won't even touch em. To me, having a Mackie is an excellent way to learn about mic selection and placement because it becomes more critical. I think that even a Ghost is a good solid place to start, but in my opinion the Midas sounds way better. Not that the ghost sounds bad at all, because its all relevant. I think its more important to get the basics down first. Solid console, solid recorder, solid monitors. With those three things, there are almost no limits (unless you have no mics). No one has even mentioned the used route. I got my console for a steal of a deal. It has 50 channel strips with 2 faders per channel, and it holds its own in the sound quality department just fine against the Chandler's, Great River's, Grace's, Avalon's etc... As much as I love API preamps (especially on drums and acoustic guitars) my console stays very strong for me. I won't disclose all the details, but lets just say that I could have spent quite a bit more on a new Mackie.

I like running between 8 and 14 drum mics depending on my mood, the drummer, the set, the type of music etc.... I guess I would really be sad to have to pick only two of those tracks to sound great when all 14 could with a decent console and mics.
 
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