Newb questions on starting up, Acoustic Guitar + Vocals.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Houda
  • Start date Start date
Well i thought instead of making a new thread i would just come back to this one, alot more of the answers here make sense now but i did have a few questions.
Id just like to confirm that the Tascam US-122 Mk2 has two XLR inputs and two inputs for instruments yes?, its also has preamps so i wont need external ones.
Since i need to record my acoustic guitar and vocals should i get one mic that does both or should i get one mic that's purely for vocal and one for the acoustic?
One other thing just to clear it up for vocals one would use a large diaphragm condenser mic whereas for acoustic guitar you would use a small diaphragm condenser yes?
 
My two penn'oth...
Do not get an LDC mic, great clunky things that get in the B way around a guitar. Two SDC s, e.g. Sontronics STC-1, AKG P170. As has been said, buy the best you can afford.

Interface: Pre amps are vital here as acoustic guitar puts out little level so you want a decent amount of gain and very low noise. I have a Fast track pro and that really won't cut it even with capacitor mics. I make no apologies for once again recommending the Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6, comes with Cubase LE5 so rock and roll from the off! And shun Firewire because most units will not work well with anything other than a Texas Instrument chipset in the PC and you don't want to get into all that swaddling!

The Ka6 has 4 analogue inputs so you could mike cake hole and guitar AND send guitar in via a line inout giving you 3 tracks to mix and match later.

And do not forget! Record at 24bits, 44.1kHz and at an average level of -18dBFS. Yes I KNOW that looks low, especially if you are used to "tape" but trust us, works best!

Dave.
 
This is going to sound stupid but with the inputs you plug in the mic or wtever, what exactly does one do with the outputs?
 
Houda said:
This is going to sound stupid but with the inputs you plug in the mic or wtever, what exactly does one do with the outputs?
Click to expand...
This is the NOOOB section H! It is by definition impossible to ask a stupid question!

The "main" outputs, 1&2 will go to your monitoring devices. Normally these will be "active" speakers (I have Tannoy Reveal 5A's, have a Googe) but could go to the AUX inputs of a hi fi rig. There is a separate headphone output that can be switched to listen to outs 1&2 or 3&4.
Keep the questions coming and if there is any "scenario" you want me to setup with my box for test, just shout!

Dave.
 
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I was really just planning to use headphones to listen to the recording but apparently everyone recommends getting monitors, the interface you suggested seems ok but is it just the preamps that are different on it compared to the Tascam US-122 Mk2? Its double the price and the only real difference i see is that the Komplete Audio 6 has two inputs that are XLR/Instrument(wtever its called) and 2 instrument where as the Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 has two XLR and two instrument?

Whats the quality on these like?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CAD-Reco...ltDomain_0&hash=item20bb71b3b9#ht_3174wt_1037
 
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Ok Houda, let's get one thing cleared up! The XLR inputs on the vast majority of AIs are for mic, OR line, OR instrument (but you can always use one for mic and tother for whichelse). The LINE inputs on the back of the Ka6 are additional inputs designed to be fed from fairly high level sources such as a synth out, drum machine even the output of an active guitar. This means the AI can record up to 4 discrete tracks from analogue sources (+ of course digital and MIDI). The Tascam 122 is limited to only 2 analogue tracks at any one time....Now, gain!

This is the property of the mic pres to amplify the signal to a decent level. I had a Tascam 144 (later and better than the 122) and it had very low gain, as indeed do most budget AIs. In most other respects it was a useful device but one factor must be borne in mind. Many of these earlier AIs do not play well with Windows 7 (a big exception is the M-A fast track pro but again, low gain pres!)

The Ka6 has more gain than most (one COULD wish for another 10dB!) but also has the other vastly important quality for a pre amp. Low noise, hiss. Even with the input controls cranked to maximum I can get good recordings of an acoustic guitar with a Shure SM57 and the noise floor is some -75dBFS, would that my room was as quiet!

Then converter quality. I won't BS you here. You are very unlikely to tell any difference between the Tascam , a Fsttk pro or the Ka6 with your present setup but I have been TOLD the converters are better than average so that can't hurt! (my main "rig" is an A&H ZED10 mixer into an M-A 2496 card and in truth the Ka6 is just the same, maybe a dB or two quieter?)

Lastly latency. That is the delay you experience betwen a sound going into an AI/computer and you hearing the result. For your immediate needs, very low latency is largely irrelavent but could well be an issue in the future. Any sort of keyboard work needs ultra low latency.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Ok Houda, let's get one thing cleared up! The XLR inputs on the vast majority of AIs are for mic, OR line, OR instrument (but you can always use one for mic and tother for whichelse). The LINE inputs on the back of the Ka6 are additional inputs designed to be fed from fairly high level sources such as a synth out, drum machine even the output of an active guitar. This means the AI can record up to 4 discrete tracks from analogue sources (+ of course digital and MIDI). The Tascam 122 is limited to only 2 analogue tracks at any one time....Now, gain!
Click to expand...

Ok but why do i need 4 tracks?

ecc83 said:
This is the property of the mic pres to amplify the signal to a decent level. I had a Tascam 144 (later and better than the 122) and it had very low gain, as indeed do most budget AIs. In most other respects it was a useful device but one factor must be borne in mind. Many of these earlier AIs do not play well with Windows 7 (a big exception is the M-A fast track pro but again, low gain pres!)
Click to expand...

Ok i supppose that warrants not getting the tascam

ecc83 said:
The Ka6 has more gain than most (one COULD wish for another 10dB!) but also has the other vastly important quality for a pre amp. Low noise, hiss. Even with the input controls cranked to maximum I can get good recordings of an acoustic guitar with a Shure SM57 and the noise floor is some -75dBFS, would that my room was as quiet!

Then converter quality. I won't BS you here. You are very unlikely to tell any difference between the Tascam , a Fsttk pro or the Ka6 with your present setup but I have been TOLD the converters are better than average so that can't hurt! (my main "rig" is an A&H ZED10 mixer into an M-A 2496 card and in truth the Ka6 is just the same, maybe a dB or two quieter?)

Lastly latency. That is the delay you experience betwen a sound going into an AI/computer and you hearing the result. For your immediate needs, very low latency is largely irrelavent but could well be an issue in the future. Any sort of keyboard work needs ultra low latency.
Click to expand...

I wont be doing any keyboard work so latency shouldnt bother me at all, but i have no idea what 10db or what converter quality is

edit: oh but in your previous post you said a ldc would get in the way of the guitar, what does that have to do with recording vocals?
 
You don't NEED four tracks but you get'em almost for free!

Then again, did some one not mention that if your guitar had a pickup on it you could try "Direct Inject" recording? If that is the case you could run three tracks.. Voice, micc'ed guitar and DI'ed guitar and try a "blend"? Or you might want to run in a backing track? Had you a bass playing friend they could use a pedal into a line in and jam with you.
Latency: Ok no keys but as you get into the game you will see the possiblity of adding effects to voice (say) reverb is one and (trust me on this!) low latency is a must here.
There is also the fact that very low latency shows great expertise on the part of the designer of the equipment and especially the writers of the drivers*. You might not "need" all that clever engineering under the hood of a Merc' but nice to know it is there! Same goes for converter "quality (briefly low noise and distortion). You won't tell now, maybe never but good to know your kit is well thought of by the cogniscenti?

10 Decibels is a voltage signal ratio of 3 to 1 (3.162 to be tekky). Decibels are an inescapeable part of this recording game, Wiki a bit. An average £100 AI might have mic amp gains up to 50dB. better ones 55dB and even better ones and mixers 60dB. Top flight 4figure pre amps have anything up to 80dB (10,000x !).

*Tis said RME had a hand in the NI drivers. Google RME and see the prices and you will see we are in good company!

Dave.
 
Ok cool, well this is how im thinking of going right now.
Buy a ai that has at least two mic inputs with preams and is capable of "direct injection"
Buy a ldc mic for vocals which one im not sure yet but ive got a bunch in an excel sheet (is an Audio Technica AT2020 xlr version any good but?)
Connect the guitar through "direct injection" im pretty sure my guitar has pickups.
Also get a sdc to record the guitar *ive heard getting two is better*

edit: oh should i mention i failed the unit on electricity in physics last year lol
 
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ecc83 - how does an LDC mic get in the way of recording an acoustic guitar any more than an SDC? Neither should be that close that they get in the way of anything.

My advice to the OP, given that he's budget constrained, was that he'd be better off getting the best LDC he could afford, rather than splitting the (already low) budget and getting an LDC and an SDC, on the grounds that he should be able to get, at his level of expenditure, a decent sound from a combination of that LDC and pickup.

I'm not pimping the qualities of LDC on acoustic guitar here, understand, I record using SDCs mostly, just saying at this point in his recording evolution, this is the way I'd be going.

Houda - how can you be "pretty sure" that your guitar has a pickup. It either does or it doesn't. Have a look FFS. Can you plug it into an amp/PA? If not, then it doesn't have a pickup. Don't buy 2 mics until you know how to work with one, they will only confuse you. Dont' try "live recording" of voice and guitar at the same time, record them separately. If you can't do one without the other, learn.
 
Armistice,

There is a vast spectrum of opinion regarding guitar recording, see...

Recording Acoustic Guitar

An LDC WILL be in the way because it will need to be quite close in the sort of small, untreated rooms the projjy recordist is stuck with as a general rule.

The point about DI recording was in response to the OPs query about the 2 extra line inputs on the Ka6 which I think is his best AI bang for buck, the fact that it has 4 analogue ins is a bonus/future proofing and by the way.

Houda: You sound almost proud to have failed that electricity test? If so don't be. A good half of recording is electronics and the home jockey does not have the luxury of "just" being an artist, he must be his own technician as well.

Dave.
 
I don't think proud is the right word to describing me fail, I was actually pissed as i got very high marks on everything else but still failed the unit because of electricity.
But I should have rephrased my pretty sure it has a pick-up to I'm sure it has a pick-up haha.
Oh but at this point in time, i really dont need super duper high quality. I see the point of getting a ai that will work once i do want that sort of quality but i think il just go with a ldc for now and build up on it as i go along.
 
ecc83 said:
Armistice,

There is a vast spectrum of opinion regarding guitar recording, see...

Recording Acoustic Guitar

An LDC WILL be in the way because it will need to be quite close in the sort of small, untreated rooms the projjy recordist is stuck with as a general rule.

The point about DI recording was in response to the OPs query about the 2 extra line inputs on the Ka6 which I think is his best AI bang for buck, the fact that it has 4 analogue ins is a bonus/future proofing and by the way.

Houda: You sound almost proud to have failed that electricity test? If so don't be. A good half of recording is electronics and the home jockey does not have the luxury of "just" being an artist, he must be his own technician as well.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Dave.... I've albums of acoustic guitar of mine that I've recorded and although I don't often use an LDC, when I have, it's never "got in the way". And there are ways of reducing reflections in small rooms, particularly on quiet sources like acoustic guitars using furniture, blankets etc. How is being close to an LDC any different to being close to an SDC?

You're still close, and if it gets in your way, then you're too close, whatever it is. An SDC, all other things being equal, gives less signal than an LDC, so you have to get even closer...

Your opinion on the matter is interesting, but it is just that, an opinion - and this is the Newbies forum, please don't peddle opinions as facts.
 
i've got a friend who rants and raves about his AT2020 (xlr not usb) and swears by it for vocals and acoustic guitars. i've been pleasantly surprised by the results when he's brought it round to play with it but i still personally prefer the sE mics in lower price range (but that's just me)
 
i was digging round the internets to find decent clips of both the AT2020 and sE X1, and these that i think are quite interesting;

the sE X1 clips here with a little review. it's actually a shootout between the X1 and a Rode NT1a

the AT2020 clips on an array of sources. i'm afraid the link may not take you directly to the clips but it's a little drop down menu and just go through the mics until you get there (maybe a whole 3 clicks!)

As always, i'd say take all the clips with a pinch of salt and just because it sounds like that on that source in that room with that signal chain doesn't mean it will sound the same in your space with your gear. if you can try both i'd strongly suggest it :)
 
Between the rode and the sE X1 i really found very little difference, one that would hardly matter to me. But it seems i failed that 3 clicks, i couldnt find it lol what dropdown was it under?
edit:nvm

i really cant hear much of a difference between teh a2020 and the others lol
 
another fairly newbie here....have tried Audacity but want one that lets me listen and mix at the same time ---that is most important to me.....so what software is best for that? I don't like to record then listen and want to change something and have to go back and record all over again....I want to change the tone or other things while I'm listening to it.....thanx for any/all help!
 
Your going to need a DAW, i would just go to the DAW section and read the various threads
 
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