New to recording and frustrated.

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dressner

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I'm not sure if I should post this here or in the guitar forum, so please mods move away if I chose the wrong forum.

Before I get into my problem, let me explain what I'm working with. At the bottom of this post is a picture of my rig to maybe clear up some questions. The mic you see is an SM57, the mixing board on top of my computer is a Behringer Xenyx 502, the amp is a Peavey ValveKing, the one below it is a Line6 Spider II (used these days only to get the Peavey up to ear level).

My problem is tone. Somehow all the life and texture of the overdriven or distorted tone never makes it onto my hard drive. I recently got the mic and mixer because running a direct line from the amp to the computer doesn't work so well, and while the mic does a lot better everything still comes out flat and a former shell of what I can hear when I'm playing it.

I've experimented with mic placement in both distance from the grille cloth and location over the speaker with some slightly promising results but I am still very disappointed.

I am going to try to explain this as best I can but I guess its a highly subjective topic describing sound, but to me when I hear a distorted guitar power chord from an amp I hear a textured sound. It isn't flat or smooth or constant, it fluctuates rapidly, and I don't just mean the different note frequencies beating against each other either. There's just something there that makes it sound cool, and that something is not being recorded and I for the life of me can't figure out why.

Also I'm getting a lot of highs and not enough bass, should I just move the mic closer to the edge of the speaker? Any other tips? I tried doing EQ processing in Adobe Audition after the fact with pretty disappointing results.

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

- Dressner

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I never heard a distorted guitar through an open back cabinet that I liked (*that I know of. lol- I'm sure someone will be along to tell me that this album or that was recorded with an open back cab, :mad::D).

Anyway, a few general things to try... maybe they'll help, maybe not.
1) I usually get the best sound out of my amp when its cranked loud.
2) try turning back the distortion on the amp just a little.
3) experiment with mic placement.
4) try a different mic if you access to any. SM57 isnt the end all be all for guitar, though its very common
 
dressner said:
Also I'm getting a lot of highs and not enough bass, should I just move the mic closer to the edge of the speaker? Any other tips? I tried doing EQ processing in Adobe Audition after the fact with pretty disappointing results./QUOTE]

I was actually going to ask you if this was your problem, as soon as I saw the picture. Then I kept reading. ;)

Disclaimer - I'm no pro myself, but I've been doing this a while as a hobbyist and I generally get results I'm happy with.

Your problem is you're micing the amp right at the cap of the speaker, where the sound you're going to get is going to be extremely bright and unbalanced. Definitely try moving your mic a bit off center - I generally mic pretty close to the edge of the cone, right up against the grill, but then again I like pretty dark tones so your mileage may vary. A flashlight actually is pretty useful when dialing in a mic position - technically it matters far more what your ears are telling you, so strumming chords while listening through headphones and occasionally tweaking the mic works but especially as you start to get a feel for what you like, it's WAY faster if you can see where you're going.

On top of that, you didn't get too far into how you're recording. How many tracks of guitar are you playing? For distorted rhythm guitar, pretty much the de facto standard is to double track your rhythm guitars - one track left, one track right. The slight inconsistencies between performances combine to give a very wide, lush, expansive stereo picture, and help give back some of that "spread" that you're hearing in the room that you miss when you record. It sort of makes sense if you stop to think about it - in the room, you're hearing the sound of the guitar coming out of the speaker, but you're also hearing the sound of the guitar as it's reflected off the walls and floor, and as the original signal interacts with the reflections a small amount of phasing occurs. Additionally, the sound isn't uni-directional - it's coming from all around you, even if there's one area where you're hearing more of it. Playing the same part twice and then panning them gives you a similar effect, where it introduces slight phasing and a sense of surrounding back into the guitar, and paradoxically sounds more "natural" to your ears.

Jeff D's comment on being careful with the gain is spot on, too.

There are definitely other mics out there that are worth a look, but you should be able to get good results out of a SM57 - it's just a great guitar cab mic, and while I don't really get on with it for leads, it's probably still my favorite rhythm guitar mic.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the comments guys, I'm replying from work at the moment so I can't record any samples, or even try any suggestions until tomorrow (I don't get home tonight until around midnight) but I will for sure try everything suggested apart from the closed back amp. Limited funds unfortunately prevent any new amp purchases for a while.

I was double tracking the guitar which for sure sounded better than a single track but I didn't do any panning adjustments which I will try.

Also is there a general rule on how hot I should record when multitracking? As loud as possible so the finished product doesn't peak out and distort? I'm used to tweaking levels like that for a single track, but with two guitars, bass, and drums all at max volume something has to give. Do I just record hot and turn everything down some and hope I can hear it all clearly and nothing distorts? Is this the difficult part of mixing or am I just missing something?
 
Most of the pro mixing guys say you should shoot for around -18dbfs with peaks at around -10dbfs if you're recording 24 bit if you're recording 16 bit maybe a couple of db hotter. and then turn up the monitors for mixing as it will be a quiet recording. no individual track should ever get anywhere near to 0 dbfs at the recording stage.

I must say when I tried that as opposed to tracking as hot as possible ,which is what the manuals tell you to do, the results were a hell of a lot better IMO and took the mastering volume increase much better
 
I'm looking at your picture and thinking "where are your monitors?" Are you listening to the playback on those paired computer speakers on each side of your screens?
 
I'll try that Bristol!

And mjb, I've been looking at monitors to replace this crap 5.1 system, but when I record I use headphones, I like those a lot better.
 
Yeah, mjb has a good point about your monitoring. Have you tried to listen to your recordings outside of your mixing space, like in the car or the living room stereo. With computer speakers and even headphones, its tough to know *what* you have.
 
Well I have considered that, as it sounds completely different in the computer speakers and the headphones, which is why I do want to get good monitors when I can afford it.

However I listen to pro recordings on these speakers and headphones all the time, and my current project is to cover a song and see how close to the original I can get it. I figure if I can make my recording sound like the original out of my equipment it should be "good."
 
Mic placement is usually the main reason people don't record what they hear in the room.Try a (cheap if you can't afford a good one) condenser further away from the amp. Also suggestion about the digital levels and gain at which you hit your plugins once tracks are recorded is VERY important. Keep the average gain of things at around -18dbfs, with peaks at around -10 max.
 
dressner said:
Well I have considered that, as it sounds completely different in the computer speakers and the headphones, which is why I do want to get good monitors when I can afford it.
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It is almost impossible to make a good recording of anything without good monitors. The general procedure is:

Put the monitors in a control booth where you can't hear the guitar amp (or drums or singer or whatever you happen to be recording). If you don't have a control booth, do what you can so you are hearing mostly your monitors instead of the amp. I don't have a control booth. I imagine 99% of home recordists don't and never can. You find work-arounds and compromises in time.

Have the guitar player play his part (while the rest of the recording plays!) with zero experimentation and maximum consistency. This is where you will be adjusting your sound. You want to make sure differences in sound are coming from your adjustments, not his playing.

Have an assistant standing at the guitar amp wearing headphones so you can talk to him on a mic. Direct him to twiddle knobs on the amp, move the mic, etc. Make sure he does this SLOWLY and he knows to stop moving the instant you tell him to. Inches matter.


The above procedure is extremely generic and not how it always plays out, but that's the general idea. Point is you can't get a good recording unless you can hear what you are recording as you record it. And you can't hear without the presence of monitors and the absence of the sound coming from the amp itself.
 
dressner said:
...I will for sure try everything suggested apart from the closed back amp. Limited funds unfortunately prevent any new amp purchases for a while..
Click to expand...

In a pinch, if you can move your amp around a bit so it's flush with the wall, it won't QUITE sound like a closed back cab, but it'll be a heck of a lot closer.

Also, definitely pan left and right, you'll be surprised.

While in a pro studio you'd go the route of listening in the control room isolated from the live sound of the amp, there's really no good way for you to do that in a bedroom. So, trial and error is your best bet - listen through headphones while positioning your mic, get it as good as you can get it, record a bit, listen to the playback, figure out what's working and what isn't, and adjust your mic position and settings accordingly. Once you get a mic position you're happy with, you might want to mark your grill with chalk or tape or something, to facilitate re-positioning for future recordings (or, if you can get away with this, just never move the mic).

Sadly, working in a bedroom is a lot different from working in a "real" studio, but if you're willing to work through the challenges, you should still be able to get excellent results.
 
Hey guys got a quick and dirty recording to demonstrate what I'm working with here.

This is with double tracked and panned rhythm and all tracking done at lower volume and the mic near the edge of the speaker.

I have to say guys I can't thank you enough, every thing mentioned above improved my tone drastically. Turning the mic down helped with the flatness I think and of course moving the mic helped with the lack of lows. I don't think I'm all the way there yet, but I don't expect to get perfect at this overnight.

Also I'm not sure I have enough low end on the rhythm even now, sounds ok in the headphones, but these computer speakers make it sound weak. Highlights the need for those monitors which I can't afford! :P In any case it's not too far off, and well within the range of tweaking on the amp in my opinion.

Any other tips or criticism is very welcome.

Q&D recording
 
dressner said:
Hey guys got a quick and dirty recording to demonstrate what I'm working with here.

This is with double tracked and panned rhythm and all tracking done at lower volume and the mic near the edge of the speaker.

I have to say guys I can't thank you enough, every thing mentioned above improved my tone drastically. Turning the mic down helped with the flatness I think and of course moving the mic helped with the lack of lows. I don't think I'm all the way there yet, but I don't expect to get perfect at this overnight.

Also I'm not sure I have enough low end on the rhythm even now, sounds ok in the headphones, but these computer speakers make it sound weak. Highlights the need for those monitors which I can't afford! :P In any case it's not too far off, and well within the range of tweaking on the amp in my opinion.

Any other tips or criticism is very welcome.

Q&D recording
Click to expand...

Not necessarily a problem, computer speakers will do that. :p

Can't listen from work, but I will tonight. Glad to hear that you feel you've already made a lot of progress though!

EDIT - and actually, you may not NEED that much low end on the rhythm tracks. The real litmus test is how it works with the bass guitar- do you have bass in that clip?
 
Nah no bass in that, I actually dont own one. When I record bass lines i play them on guitar and use software to kick it down an octave. >.< Of course it doesn't sound exactly right, but I try to play on the thicker strings to get it closer.
 
Cmon someone give me some criticism on that recording please! Even if its all bad I'd like to know now so I can get better!
 
Aside from the performance...it sounds like overcranked guitar playing, very noisy. The sound would benefit immediately if you treat your room. An alternative would be to build a tunnel out of heavy blankets in front of your amp.
 
The recording sounds really good. It has nice tone to it. I also have the same amp, and the way i get good tone is to put the microphone in between the middle and the edge of the cone. I keep the amp level pretty low, low enough so the bass tone stays with it. And you should put the amp on the ground and maybe cover it, with maybe some of that foam stuff you have in the picture or make a box around it and put a blanket, it will help a lot.
 
dressner said:
Hey guys got a quick and dirty recording to demonstrate what I'm working with here.
Q&D recording
Click to expand...
tone preference is so opinion and context based. that said, it sounds descent but I'm not liking the mids. they're grainy in a cheap Line-6 Amp/modeler, a lot left to be desired, way.

looking at your amps, my first recommendation is to consider better quality amp and speaker. the difference will be night and day. you will be fighting this all day long without a quality source tone.

how heavy of a tone are you after? genre?
 
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