New Studio and business start up....

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Gundry

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Hello everyone. I am starting a new business that is going to be an upscale educational facility in the art of the guitar. Part of what I am using as a lure for clients is that all the lessons will be taught in a brand-new studio. This also include an acoustically treated and soundproofed warm up room that I will also be able to use as a amp booth\vocal booth. I am remodeling an existing building on my property that is 60 foot long, 40 foot deep 12 foot high trusses and no load bearing walls within the building. The plans are just about done for the studio with the interior width of 17 feet, a length of 24'10", and interior height of 10'8". The warm up room will be close to 9 1/2 feet wide and 12 foot long. Both will be built as complete separate pods within the existing building with the HVAC and electrical being the only connection. The biggest exception to that statement would be the concrete floor that they will be resting on, which is a solid slab 4 inches thick. I will be using the concrete floor as mass and will not be attempting, or using any money, to try to achieve a floating floor.

I am using two solid doors for each room and I'm trying to decide between the automatic door seal systems from 2 different companies. One is from the Zero company and the other from the Soundproofing company. Does anyone here have any experience with the products offered from these 2 separate companies?



So there you have it my friends, another studio is finding its way from the drawing board into reality. So I need recommendations for the door seals to speed me on my way. It would be my pleasure to post the raw space that I have now and to document the construction phase to the ribbon-cutting ceremony.

Thank you all and I appreciate your time and expertise! :)
 
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Ummmm.....Did I post something offensive or out of line as a "newbie"? No answers or questions? I honestly do need assistance with this and many more issues that are sure to arise along the way.

Another issue has come up and it deals with the purposed interior room sizes. My architecht is using Mr. Winer's formula for optimum room dimensions. At this point the two measure:

10'8" H x 17' W x 24'10" L using the 17' W as the base number.
8'4" H x 9'6" W x 11'7" L using the 11'7" L as it's base number.

In rooms of this size should I not utilize all of the height and floor space I have available or is the formula a better way to go for the best sound?

In particular I have, and desire, an additional 2' that can be added to the length of the main room and additional height available for both rooms.

The other dimension problem is with the placement of the doors. Due to the overall layout the main room has only a 1' interior wall measurement from the corner to the door opening. Is this enough for a sutible base trap? In the smaller room the door is up against the wall but that will be moved to give me a 2' gap. I hope that will be sutible givin the size of the room.

Thank you again and I look forward to your assistance and appreciate your time and expertise.
 
Gundry said:
Ummmm.....Did I post something offensive or out of line as a "newbie"?
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No.

Speaking for myself you are way beyond my "expertise" already. As well this is a larger dollar project and I think you should seriously consider paying an expert consultant for these type of questions. It also appears that you have touched on some of the basics (room dimension formula) but made other decisions - the floor and HVAC - that don't appear to benefit from acoustic expertise. You will not get "soundproof" out of your "warm-up" room without major isolation efforts, including the floor. Have you used double layers of sheetrock with green glue?

As far as bass trapping - that sort of thing will be more important in the mixing/control room. The smaller room will probably want more than the larger but as their primary purpose is tracking there are other methods and concerns that really are beyond my comfort zone.

Good luck regardless. Have you been to John Sayers forum?


lou
 
Hello Lou! Thank you for your reply. I have been using professionals for the design from the beginning. For soundproofing Ted White of the Soundproofing Co. has been a enormous help. My architicht has 30+ years of experience including sound studios and was key to the design of the 110db theatre at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Together we have worked on the soundproofing side of this project. They are both in agreement that the mass of the concrete will work fine. Both agree that a correctly constructed full floating floor is well above the budget and simply not necessary. They both contest many Internet absolutes and/or theorys. Ted backs up all of his design with current data, from tests they have conducted, to back up their suggestions. I am also following the duct and register designs for soundproofing from Ted utilizing flex duct encased in two soffits with bends, insulation, and a free flow of air. All duct work will go to a new geothermal HVAC that has a lower sound production then other methods.

Ted, of the Soundproofing Co., wants to sell me their best door seal system. My arch wants me to use the Zero Co. products. That triggered the original question.

Yes. All of the interior walls will have 3/4" ocb, greenglue, followed by 2 more layers of 5/8" drywall with glue. The same with the soffits and no can lighting will be used. Two solid core doors for each room. And as mentioned framed as a seperate pod with insulation facing insulation in the air gap.

So I have used professional consultants but am trying to get a third opinion on these final design questions where there may exist some difference of opinion.

I will check out Mr. Sayers. I have done my best as a lurker and Internet information junkie to assist in the project. I do wish to point out that the live room will be the mixing/control room. The other is a "warm up room" for students before their class starts. The construction will match the main room in all aspects. I will also use it as a amp isolation booth. Or vocals if there seems to be any advantage when used. A good spot for a vocal during a live band recording for seperate mix down later.

So thanks again lou and anyone else free to jump in!
 
Okay then. I don't know anything about door seals. Sounds like a nice space.


lou
 
People here sometimes stay silent when the subject is so out of their league or experience they can think of nothing to say on it. I think that's why you got no responses, at first. Statements like "Does anyone here have any experience with the products offered from these 2 separate companies?" are pretty unequivocal; those of us with NO experience really can not intelligently address the question, now can we? (I am not ragging on you for including that kind of qualifier, I do it, too.)

I agree with Lou- your project and your questions are beyond the scope of perhaps 99% of the people and experiences in this forum. IMHO, spending a little more money getting a professional opinion on those doors is the best thing you can do.

But do let us know what you decided to do, and why. We may not know diddly squat about those doors, but that doesn't mean we don't want to know more about them.
 
stevieb said:
But do let us know what you decided to do, and why. We may not know diddly squat about those doors, but that doesn't mean we don't want to know more about them.
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Yeah. And pictures.

Pretty please?


lou
 
Thank you both for getting this all rolling on this thread. Now, I do take exception with the statement that 99% of the folks here on the forum are beneath the questions that I am posing. I've been lurking here for quite a period of time and know that there are some very well versed professionals who post here on a daily basis. I also find that many of the other regular members do have a vast knowledge base far superior to mine. Yes, I am spending the money, at least what I have to get this business up and running, but money does not equal intelligence, experience, or even common sense.

But yes I do understand your point. What I bring to the table is a question concerning two very specific products and their manufacturers. Not everyone would have personal knowledge or comparison of the two. That's why I brought it to a forum such as this in the hopes that with such a large scale readership that hopefully someone has been in the same position that I find myself now. This also includes my questions about the room sizes. I need to answer these questions fairly soon as my architect should be finishing up today or tomorrow to submit the plans to the building department. Although both of the issues I am questioning are not locked in to the time frame of plan submission, I hope to begin tearing out and driving nails as soon as possible. When I receive the drawings I will be able to present them to specific contractors in order to get equal bids as they view the same plans and speced out products. With 2 of the biggest issues already settled and payments applied (HVAC and plumbing) , that leaves me with finding an electrician, general builder, and hopefully someone who could hang drywall was some sort of professionalism and expediency. I see a lot of very long nights, long days, long weeks, long droopy eyes, and a broken back coming my way. Like a freight train. But fellow forum members, isn't that what it's all about? ;)

So if I can find the right contractors and I'm able to organize and coordinate a time frame with everyone then I am the type of person who really pushes forward to get things done once they are started. I hope to be sweeping up and putting things in place within the next 6 weeks. The sooner I can get this business up and running, the sooner I will be able to put a dollar back into the bank to pay for all this fun and frivolity and to make sure my wife does not kill me. If I can't pull this off..... Then I am in a real-world of do do. :spank:

But what the hell….I only got one life!
And PHOTOS! Well I look forward to that as much as you guys. I just need to understand the IT process this forum uses.

So hang on for the ride…..for good or bad…..the trains pulling out….and some of my hair with it! :eek:

Thank you!
 
My architicht has 30+ years of experience including sound studios and was key to the design of the 110db theatre at the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
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Any designer/Architect specifying design elements for a recording studio should have all the current product/technical/ install already spec'ed for you. If not..well, something is amiss. Have you or they already submitted compliance drawings to your building Inspection Department? If so, then the details would be included. If not...I submit your time frame is not resting in reality.
Considering, you have stated this is a Commercial project, I perceive a reality check very soon.
 
Hello Mr. Fitzpatrick. Thank you for your reply. As far as the materials that my architect spec’ed out the answer is that yes he has spec’ed out all the different materials needed for the construction of the studio. Some of the interior acoustical properties are being left up to me. The reason I brought up the door seal question is that he has recommended the products from the Zero Co. for the door seals on all 4 doors as recommended by his firms sound consultants. I am not planning on purchasing professional quality ready-made studio doors at 3 to $5000 each. Instead, we are purchasing commercially available solid core doors and installing the seals to reach an adequate level of isolation. Ted white of the Soundproofing Co. claims that their door seals, again using commercial solid core doors, are the best and that they have the data to prove that. Thus my question regarding the two companies products and anyone's experience with either.

The other question dealing with the interior sizes of the 2 rooms comes from MY perceived contradiction of information. I reiterate that my architect has done his homework and that is why the rooms are sized the way that they are. The contradiction stems from what I have read on this forum and other areas on the Internet that seem to agree that as long as you do not construct a square box then all of the available space should be utilized, especially the ceiling height I have available to me.

In order to keep my architectural costs down we agreed from the beginning to work together, using my resources and his, to come to an agreement as far as to the level of soundproofing for this job. It was also agreed that for the most part, the interior acoustical properties would be left up to me so that I would not incur additional expense with his firm. Since I had already found a provider for the HVAC, we agreed that those plans to be submitted to the building department would be left up to that contractor and not be part of his time or my expense. My contract with my HVAC provider includes any and all necessary adaptations needed for the sound studio.

I am very fortunate as to where I live in regards to this project. I am under absolutely no zoning requirements and only need to meet building code for the County building Dept. We have already been in touch with all of the different departments that the plans will pass through and have already received agreements that will end up being rubber stamped for approval. The head of the building department is already aware of the type of construction that we are pursuing and is behind us all away. The fortunate part for me is that none of the costs associated with the renovation of this building are coming from any commercial loan and only from private monies. So the building department has agreed, by keeping the occupancy number very low, to consider this as a "light commercial" project and the building being listed as mixed use.

I may not have made myself very clear from the beginning, when I stated that this is a commercial project, that this will not be in essence a commercial recording studio at this time. What I am starting is an upscale educational facility teaching the art of the guitar. The smaller room is intended to be a warm up room for all the students before they enter the main studio to receive their instruction. Therefore, students will not be sitting in a 5 x 5 plain drywall room with horrible carpeting and a cheap hollow core door, but instead in rooms that are acoustically treated, large, and include the ability for them to record last week's homework, to be transferred to a USB drive for them to keep a record of their progress.

The long-term plans for the rooms ARE to be used as a commercial recording studio with up-to-date distribution and promotion of individuals and bands. That is why I am going to the cost and time for the smaller room as again I can envision this being an isolated amplifier room or vocal booth. If it turns out to be providing the best sound. And also it will give me an ability put the singer in a separate room when recording live in order to separate that track better, with less or no bleed when later mixing. But that will not be happening for some time as I need to finish formal education in the art of recording and improving my knowledge of my chosen instrument. But please keep in mind that the main use for these areas is for instruction to generate an immediate cash flow to pay off the loan that I acquired for this project.

Any time I enter any type of building project my personality and thought process forces me to investigate as thoroughly as possible whatever I am beginning. I then always try to look to the future to accommodate changes both in technology and use. When I built my home I installed a 400 amp service with the belief that I may change the use of this particular building somewhere in the future and used large, heavy-duty conduit to run from my house to this building just in case a change like this one might occur. That was 15 years ago and long before I ever considered using music in any form to provide me a full-time job. This anticipation is allowing me to easily change the hundred amp service in my building to a 200 amp to accommodate the geothermal heating system and all the other electrical needs. This is just one example of all of the design that I implemented for this building from the beginning.From the current design standpoint, I believe I have done a pretty good job estimating the cost of materials needed to finish out what I am starting. The only numbers or bids that I am waiting on is the labor charge for the drywall and electrical installation. But I believe I have a reasonable portion of the budget scheduled for that.

It's really kind of funny to me when I look back at the impetus for this huge undertaking. The last band I was in broke up due to "drama". Surprise. Surprise. The last member of the band to collect his equipment was the bass player and as he and I stood chatting about what had happened I simply stated “The hell with all this, I'll just build a studio and record myself, fill-in the other instruments, and then bring in another musician to play a part to round out the recording. I'm just sick of all this craziness and egos."

So PLEASE explain to me your comment regarding the "reality check" as I welcome your thoughts and expertise. Please believe me that I will NOT be offended in any way, shape or form of constructive ideas and issues that I have not addressed. That is why I'm posting on this forum. I am looking for and need the collective education from this wonderful group of people. And please include your comment in regards to my time frame.

Thank you all and please keep the postings coming. I appreciate the time each and every one of you are so generous to give.
 
Hello Gundry and welcomee to the board. Well, that was quite a mouthful.:D

Ok, so you want to know...basically...if anyone here has had experience with the products the two different vendors offer as far as doors/seals...correct?


If memory serves me..this is a HOME RECORDING STUDIO forum. Of which, if the name suggests anything, it's purpose is to help people who want to build a home studio. And usually, this implies doing things very economically, DIY, and within reason. Although there ARE people here who have worked with these products/vendors, unless they care to step forward and offer their opinions, besides them, I highly doubt anyone else here has built a HOME studio with $5,000 door assemblies. That's because the members who have, are STUDIO DESIGNERS and most home studio DIY'ers are doing it themselves because they usually don't have $5k for an entire studio, let alone a door assembly. However, I have had the good fortune to come across a post on another forum by Rod Gervais, who is the author of "Home Recording Stuido-Build it like the Pros", and is also a member here. As far as DIY, here is what he suggests.


is.php


As far as opinions of vendors, read the entire thread here:

Acoustics Forum • View topic - Question for Rod Gervais - Door Seals

Hope that helps.

fitZ
P.S. It would be to your advantage if you purchased Rods Book prior to building your studio. Normally, mainstream architects really don't have the depth of expertise in Transmission Loss construction nor the design background in acoustics to properly design a studio. That's why Studio Designers exist.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1MVNB032P8WWPQHW4605

And if you REALLY want to go into depth...I suggest this as well.


Amazon.com: Recording Studio Design, Second Edition (9780240520865): Philip Newell: Books
 
BTW, those seals are a typical Auto Trunk seal. Very economical..and if their good enough for Rod, they're good enough for me. :)
 
Oh, and this...
The last band I was in broke up due to "drama". Surprise. Surprise. The last member of the band to collect his equipment was the bass player and as he and I stood chatting about what had happened I simply stated “The hell with all this, I'll just build a studio and record myself, fill-in the other instruments, and then bring in another musician to play a part to round out the recording. I'm just sick of all this craziness and egos."
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+1 Amen;)

And btw, don't EVER call me Mr. again....its's fitZ:D
 
fitZ...........



You have left me speechless! :laughings:

Sorry for the long posts fellow members. Blame it on my new software Dragon. Talk and it types. I have no connection, no spam, but I have found it to be very cool.

I followed the maze that is the Internet and ended up at the Acoustic Forum. I think you must have a PHD in mathematics to participate. But what I did find was their obvious disdain for Mr. Winer and the propagation of Mr. Stepelmyer's room proportion calculations. ( I am sorry Mr. Winer. I know you post here and please feel free to retort.)
They claim that a major mathematic consideration was omitted. When I followed their calculators I was shown that if I follow my instincts and make the rooms as big as I had hoped, then the acoustics curve has a much higher level of acceptance. So I believe I will do what is best for my personal needs in design with the hope that the calculations will be the best.
I saw the door seal suggestion. I think that using normal Home Depot solid core doors with commercial seals from one of the companies I listed will keep the cost well under $1000.00 a door. More like $800.00. Yes I know that is still expensive. But I am betting my life on this venture. A very sobering concept indeed.

The overall budget is around 60 grand. It will be VERY tight. But what the hell, that shovel full of dirt can come any day for anybody!


At least that's what I tell my Wife!

And if this all takes a dump...... She will be the first one holding the shovel! :eek:

Thanks again and keep em coming! :D
 
Ohh and by the way......I AM building this at my home

I QUALIFY! Yeaaaaaay!
 
Yeah, this is a bigger project than I can help with.
All I can add is put some pics of the progress and don't forget the lava lamp.

:D

welcome dude. :drunk:
 
THE LAMP.....damn.....how did I forget the lamp?


I better add $14.95 (plus tax!) to the budget!

I knew this was the place to come!

And photos are a must. I will post stills and I am getting a video camera as a rebate from some tires I bought so I will have to figure out a way to get video links or postings to you all also.

Let's have fun!
 
And hey Dogbreath, anybody with your number of posts and burlap boxers can only be a positive influence. Please don't underestimate my level of incompetence! It is a wide and very deep canyon.


Seriously........ REAL deep! :drunk:
 
Gundry said:
And hey Dogbreath, anybody with your number of posts and burlap boxers can only be a positive influence. Please don't underestimate my level of incompetence! It is a wide and very deep canyon.


Seriously........ REAL deep! :drunk:
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:laughings:

And my depravity knows no bounds.

:p
 
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