needed final mixdown tips--Sonar 2

[Strryder]

Right near the beginning I hear "something" happening, I think on the lead guitar track, kinda crispy in one or two spots.

It could be artifacts from applying destructive edits, I'm not sure.

Overall it doesn't sound too bad to me, but one thing is for sure, the other version does kick butt!!

If you still have the raw tracks somewhere you could keep on practicing, the more you do it, the better you'll get.

I really like the playing style on "Angels dancing on the head of" I have a soft spot for nice acoustic playing...

Where abouts are you at down there in the Big "T"?, my sister moved down there a few years ago, to Arlington, she just loves the place.

 

[Porter]

Bill,

I'm at home now....

Attached is a screen shot of two wave forms which I imported into a new Sonar Project. Your track is on the bottom. I took the liberty of increasing the loudness by 3db just to bring it to some what in line with the other mix.

From the beginning of the song you can see how your sounds is 'squashed'... ie more compression... and this seems to follow through the song. I know that you shouldn't 'look' at a wave form, you should listen, however sometimes the wave form can give you an insite into the recording.

DYNAMICS... try re-mixing the song using little, if any dynamic's processing except for maybe the final mix when you apply a soft compression at maybe 3db.. maybe 2:1, just to stop the transients and possible clips.

I plugged the Timeworks EQ on the main bus and had a look at the EQ of both mixes. As for the 'bass punch or dynamic drums'... you are missing out on both ends of the 'spectrum'. Personally I'm not that good with EQ at this stage, however this is what I see... a peek abount 100hz, which is on average to most songs, however you lower frequencies around 25hz lack.. that is where the bass punch will come in.... but you don't want too much there.. as for the dynamic drums, that will be part of it... but the big difference is the snare... you have it up at 6Khz where the other mix it is closer to 2Khz....

That's a start... I'm off to bed. I've just been to an 'end of financial' year function (all my posts before was when I was waiting to head there)... this will be my final post for the night... it's 10:57 and I've got to drive my wife to a craft fair in the morning... ie recording time for me tomorrow...

Have another go a mixing the song... remember to mix around the vocals.. btw, try normalising the vocals first.

Porter

BTW.. now is listen to it.. that lead guitar in the beginning has a little clipping on it.

 

[guttadaj]

Much of what I've described above can be done within Sonar (i.e., export a mix and then bring it back into a new Sonar project).

Oh almighty dachay2tnr, could you help a newbie understand? Why would one take this step to export and bring back into a new Sonar project, especially since during this mastering process you might...

...find new things starting to pop out which require you going back to Sonar to tweak the original mix, and exporting a new wave file."

...(?) Wouldn't it be the same to just put your "overall mix" compression/limiting/enhancing effects on the A stereo output bus? Is this export step just done to limit CPU power needed (only thing I could think of), or is there some other reasons that my feeble mind is not grasping at the moment?

Thanks!
-Jeff

btw, thanks for asking this question, Bill - I'm really enjoying this thread!

 

[dachay2tnr]

Oh almighty dachay2tnr, could you help a newbie understand? Why would one take this step to export and bring back into a new Sonar project, especially since during this mastering process you might... ...(?) Wouldn't it be the same to just put your "overall mix" compression/limiting/enhancing effects on the A stereo output bus? Is this export step just done to limit CPU power needed (only thing I could think of), or is there some other reasons that my feeble mind is not grasping at the moment?

Thanks!
-Jeff

btw, thanks for asking this question, Bill - I'm really enjoying this thread!

Yeah, you got it Jeff. I just find it less distracting to work in a "clean" project" with just the final mix to focus on. Also, as you guessed, many mastering plugins are very CPU intensive (for ex., Ozone, Waves L1, etc.). I'm working with a 733 MHz P3, so personally I need all the help I can get.

The other issue is if you want to go back and tweak a specific track, you now have all the mastering effects affecting the track as well (since they are on the Main).

Of course, you can just turn off those effects while you tweak the track. There are lots of ways to get to the same place - so whatever floats your boat.

 

[wfaraoni]

From the beginning of the song you can see how your sounds is 'squashed'... ie more compression... and this seems to follow through the song. I know that you shouldn't 'look' at a wave form, you should listen, however sometimes the wave form can give you an insite into the recording.

DYNAMICS... try re-mixing the song using little, if any dynamic's processing except for maybe the final mix when you apply a soft compression at maybe 3db.. maybe 2:1, just to stop the transients and possible clips.

I plugged the Timeworks EQ on the main bus and had a look at the EQ of both mixes. As for the 'bass punch or dynamic drums'... you are missing out on both ends of the 'spectrum'. Personally I'm not that good with EQ at this stage, however this is what I see... a peek abount 100hz, which is on average to most songs, however you lower frequencies around 25hz lack.. that is where the bass punch will come in.... but you don't want too much there.. as for the dynamic drums, that will be part of it... but the big difference is the snare... you have it up at 6Khz where the other mix it is closer to 2Khz....

That's a start... I'm off to bed. I've just been to an 'end of financial' year function (all my posts before was when I was waiting to head there)... this will be my final post for the night... it's 10:57 and I've got to drive my wife to a craft fair in the morning... ie recording time for me tomorrow...

Have another go a mixing the song... remember to mix around the vocals.. btw, try normalising the vocals first.
Porter

BTW.. now is listen to it.. that lead guitar in the beginning has a little clipping on it.

Porter, YOU DA MAN Your suggestions are right on track. I went back and checked the guitar track, and sure enough thats what was keeping me from getting the volume. it was right at the clip threshold if not over in spots. Hence no volume for other tracks no punch for the bass. Im going to try your eq tips as well.
Duh, I thought I had checked all of this earlier but I missed that guitar one! . Im going to go back and remix this whole thing. Setting the vox to as high as I can get them and then building around it.

Ive learned a lot doing this project and I think my end result will be significantly better next time...and from now on I Hope!

As always any more suggestions are Very Welcome. It will be a while before I get time to redo this ,but I will let you know how it turns out.


BTW this is an excellent learning project for anyone who wants to improve their mixing skills. The post is in the "mp3 mixing clinic" by chrisharris and its called a challenge. which it really is. all the parts are downloadable there.


Peace Bill

 

[Jagular]

Heh

This thread has been a good read. I didn't have the time to take up Chris' challenge, but perhaps I should dl the files so I an do it for my own education later.

I just had one quick note and it probably doesn't have anything to do with the problem at hand...

I used the Cakewalk fx limiter on the vmains on one project once back in CWPA9 to try some brick wall limiting. I got this little distorted clipping type sound from that. I went to he CWfx compressor and used that instead with the same settings to brickwall the mix and no distortion. I found that odd and shortly thereafter my old puter died so I didn't get to investigate it any further. Plus with Sonar, I just used the Timeworks compressor and had no problems whatsoever (loved it). So I have no idea if any of this is relevant or not

Just thought I would share

Good read!!

 

[wfaraoni]

Hi Jagular, good to see you around again. I like the timeworks compressor but you've got to watch that wall function. Too much and it sounds like crap.

The whole idea of mixing someone elses tracks seemed like way too much work to me ,AT FIRST, but I think that I learned more doing this than on any other project Ive done.

I really never did get an definite answer to my original question....which was....

what is the BEST way to output your project for mixdown??

bounce --nobounce--bounced as sections-- destructive due to fx
running you out of cpu---just select them all and export etc.
use another program for the final mix----hire a pro with knowledge and EARS

Let me know what you come up with, I know you'll figure it out.

Hey youre gonna live sonar 2 XL





Peace
Bill

 

[wfaraoni]

bump

 

[Porter]

wfaraoni,

I had a look at that track and I think I worked out where they got the separation... the two guitar tracks are hard panned... left and right with the lead's and vocals down the center.

Have you tried re-mixing again?

Porter

 

[wfaraoni]

Hi porter,
No, Ive been out of town and havent had time to take another whack at it yet. But I know that when I do take the time to remix it its going to be a whole lot better


Bill

 

[crosstudio]

1.

I try to maximize all the tracks output in the mix and adjust (down) from there.

this is the start of problems. don't maximize (or normalize) individual tracks. if you feel that the track wasn't recorded hot enough, then you can adjust the TRIM.

compression is your friend if you use it properly. otherwise, you end up with dull squashed tracks, and thereby a dull mix. set the track compression attack for the bass and kick to let the high frequency energy get through and clamp down on the thump so that it doesn't eat up your sonic space.

2.
when you are mixing are you looking at Peak levels or RMS levels? since you maximize your individual tracks, the summed volume of those tracks stands a good chance of clipping, so you need to be looking at the peak meters. i have my recording meters set for peak, and my playback meters set for both peak and RMS.

3.
good plugins produce good results when used well. the cakewalk limiter is not a look ahead limiter so its not a good idea to use it to prevent clipping. the ultrafunk compressor has a peak limiter built in.

4.
do a low cut on all the instruments other than the bass and kick and pay careful attention to excessive mud tones coming from the bass and kick.

5.
the fact that you are maximizing the individual tracks, yet your mix peaks at -6db is a huge hint that something is wrong.

ps. When I'm working on an individual song (single) and not a group of songs, I do everything in Sonar from soup to nuts. recording, editing, mixing, and mastering. the only thing i don't do in Sonar is dither the mix to 16bit/44.1. I use Magix Samplitude Master for the conversion and CD burn.

 

[wfaraoni]

1.


this is the start of problems. don't maximize (or normalize) individual tracks. if you feel that the track wasn't recorded hot enough, then you can adjust the TRIM.

answer:
I use the normalize because it can find that highest peak, I used to use trim but I got more clipping cause Im deaf those meters must lie

compression is your friend if you use it properly. otherwise, you end up with dull squashed tracks, and thereby a dull mix. set the track compression attack for the bass and kick to let the high frequency energy get through and clamp down on the thump so that it doesn't eat up your sonic space.

answer:
Yeah, I use too much compression all the time. I have not been able to achieve good drums and bass yet though Ive tried lots of tips. Bottom end in digital is real tough.


2.
when you are mixing are you looking at Peak levels or RMS levels? since you maximize your individual tracks, the summed volume of those tracks stands a good chance of clipping, so you need to be looking at the peak meters. i have my recording meters set for peak, and my playback meters set for both peak and RMS.

answer:
I have all my meters set to peak and rms.

3.
good plugins produce good results when used well. the cakewalk limiter is not a look ahead limiter so its not a good idea to use it to prevent clipping. the ultrafunk compressor has a peak limiter built in.

answer:
What are typical settings for a limiter, any suggestions.

4.
do a low cut on all the instruments other than the bass and kick and pay careful attention to excessive mud tones coming from the bass and kick.

answer:
Ive heard your low end and its good, what frequencies do you typically cut to leave room for drums and bass. Ive heard some say they cut the drums at 80 -125 and bass at 300 -350 so they dont bury each other.. oops ,,thats the other way around.

5.
the fact that you are maximizing the individual tracks, yet your mix peaks at -6db is a huge hint that something is wrong.

answer:
youve got that right for sure, I dont know how I messed that up anymore. Ill pay more attention next time. Live and learn

ps. When I'm working on an individual song (single) and not a group of songs, I do everything in Sonar from soup to nuts. recording, editing, mixing, and mastering. the only thing i don't do in Sonar is dither the mix to 16bit/44.1. I use Magix Samplitude Master for the conversion and CD burn.

Hey thanks for those tips
with a little luck and some careful attention I hope I can make some progress.


Peace
Bill

 

[James Argo]

I went through this thread over and over, nad just ralized... How come I didn't show up here

Anyway, it's a good thread Bill although I didn't have anything to say (yet) by now, I'm enjoying this stuff of learning as well Keep it up


Jaymz

 

[wfaraoni]

Bill,

I'm at home now....

Attached is a screen shot of two wave forms which I imported into a new Sonar Project. Your track is on the bottom. I took the liberty of increasing the loudness by 3db just to bring it to some what in line with the other mix.

From the beginning of the song you can see how your sounds is 'squashed'... ie more compression... and this seems to follow through the song. I know that you shouldn't 'look' at a wave form, you should listen, however sometimes the wave form can give you an insite into the recording.

DYNAMICS... try re-mixing the song using little, if any dynamic's processing except for maybe the final mix when you apply a soft compression at maybe 3db.. maybe 2:1, just to stop the transients and possible clips.

I plugged the Timeworks EQ on the main bus and had a look at the EQ of both mixes. As for the 'bass punch or dynamic drums'... you are missing out on both ends of the 'spectrum'. Personally I'm not that good with EQ at this stage, however this is what I see... a peek abount 100hz, which is on average to most songs, however you lower frequencies around 25hz lack.. that is where the bass punch will come in.... but you don't want too much there.. as for the dynamic drums, that will be part of it... but the big difference is the snare... you have it up at 6Khz where the other mix it is closer to 2Khz....

That's a start... I'm off to bed. I've just been to an 'end of financial' year function (all my posts before was when I was waiting to head there)... this will be my final post for the night... it's 10:57 and I've got to drive my wife to a craft fair in the morning... ie recording time for me tomorrow...

Have another go a mixing the song... remember to mix around the vocals.. btw, try normalising the vocals first.

Porter

BTW.. now is listen to it.. that lead guitar in the beginning has a little clipping on it.

Porter: to me it looks like meshuggahs mix (the blue one above) is completely cut off at the peaks. How did he do that????? and not get clipping!!
Anyone?

 

[wfaraoni]

although I didn't have anything to say (yet) by now, I'm enjoying this stuff of learning as well Keep it up


Jaymz

This has got to be a first. Jaymz with nothing to say

 

[Porter]

Porter: to me it looks like meshuggahs mix (the blue one above) is completely cut off at the peaks. How did he do that????? and not get clipping!!
Anyone?

It's quite possible he put a hard compression on it at say -3db then a hard wall limit on it at -0.5db

Porter

 

[Porter]

This has got to be a first. Jaymz with nothing to say

Jaymz just wanted to get in on this topic so he could get e-mail's notifying him when someone has said something on it so he can review what they say

Porter

 

[wfaraoni]

I still think there's an issue with the 6dB headroom. Crank up the volume!

Tracking should be done between 0 dB and -6 dB. Never above 0 dB and never below -12 dB (if using 16 bit). The higher the volume, the lower the SNR (of the card itself, if that's the problem).

hey Moskus; I just realized why I got -6db here in the final mix. I went back and dropped the mix down and rebounced because someone said they heard some clipping , and I was trying to get that out.

Ive gotta start this over and see if I learned anything. Just have to find the time.

Bill

 

[Porter]

Just remember with clipping, if you clip a track during bouce down (ie turning it up to a +db) you can't get rid of it later. The other time is to clip the main bus... again, if you work with the bounced track and it has a clip increaseing the head room won't fix it, you will need to re-bounce.

Hope that makes sense,

Porter

 

[wfaraoni]

Porter said,It's quite possible he put a hard compression on it at say -3db then a hard wall limit on it at -0.5db


It sure sounds clean though Theres got to be some secret weapon, Im going to have to ask Messugah