Need tips on starting a collaboration. Technical aspects.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Trent Reznor
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Trent Reznor

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Hey everyone. I'm about to organize a collab project (if you're interested PM me). But I'm a little unsure about the best way to go about recording and transfers. So I'll run down the list of questions I have.

1. Most digital recording is formatted so that each track is a mono .wav file so let's say we do a "Lay a track, pass it down" type project where we start with drums, another person adds rythym guitar, another bass, etc.... What is the best format to transfer as? Transferring a bunch of 22MB wav files for each track would take too long. Has anyone tried just compressing into say a 160k or 192k .mp3 and then opening it up and converting it back to a .wav, then recording on top of it, then compressing your track back to .mp3 for the next guy?

2. A couple of us have good editing/mixing equipment and software, others don't. I'm a little worried about some of the tracks needing some mixing to get the levels right after they've been recording so keeping everyones' tracks seperated would be good, but I would think that people who don't have home studios and are just recording into a sound card might have problems with this. In all honesty it would be easier if we had some more musicians with recording experience, so again if you're interested, PM me. :)

3. What else should I be thinking about? I'm not looking for a perfect project the first time, just to get our feet wet. But the more tips I can get, the better it'll be. I'm really new to this so if you think there's anything you can offer that I haven't asked about, your advice is appreciated. Thanks :)
 
1. Most digital recording is formatted so that each track is a mono .wav file so let's say we do a "Lay a track, pass it down" type project where we start with drums, another person adds rythym guitar, another bass, etc.... What is the best format to transfer as? Transferring a bunch of 22MB wav files for each track would take too long. Has anyone tried just compressing into say a 160k or 192k .mp3 and then opening it up and converting it back to a .wav, then recording on top of it, then compressing your track back to .mp3 for the next guy?
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This would not work very well, as each time someone converts the mp3 to a .wav file, and then back....lots of musical information will be lost, no matter the bitrate. There are some lossless compression schemes available such as .flac, which would work much better, but they do not compress as much as .mp3. Probably closer to 5:1, whereas mp3 is up to 50:1.

2. A couple of us have good editing/mixing equipment and software, others don't. I'm a little worried about some of the tracks needing some mixing to get the levels right after they've been recording so keeping everyones' tracks seperated would be good, but I would think that people who don't have home studios and are just recording into a sound card might have problems with this. In all honesty it would be easier if we had some more musicians with recording experience, so again if you're interested, PM me. :)
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There's probably a couple ways to avoid this. Don't expect your contributors to do any mixing. Just have them cut their track(s) using a raw monitor mix. In this manner, you do the mixing, give the raw mix to the next person as a stereo track, they send you back only the tracks they added as .flac files. You insert those into the master mix, remix and the stereo monitor mix gets sent off to the next person. This way, you're never sending more than one stereo file to any one person, and you get back the one or few tracks they have recorded.

Probably having a website set up, or some type of CVS system for music files, could be a handy idea. Then, your collaborators would have access to whichever tracks they need/want, and you wouldn't have to work via email.
 
I've never messed with FLAC much, I've got a few bootlegs in that format but I don't know much about it. Are you saying that FLAC will compress 5:1 compared to a .Wav? If so, I think that's probably the route to go since it's lossless, that will cut it down enough so that even dial-up users will be able to download the stuff. This project is just a particular thread at our forum, but something we're definitely wanting to do more and more once we get the hang of it. Thanks a lot for your quick reply and if you're interested in contributing, we'd love to add you. :)
 
I might be interested in helping out on this. I'll keep following this thread regardless.

Regarding compression, there are more and more lossless compression schemes being released, which is a good thing. More choices are always better. Just pick one that supports both 16/24 bit.

Here is a list of some common lossless audio compressors:

Shorten
MUSICompress/WaveZIP
WaveArc
Pegasus SPS (ELS-Ultra)
Sonarc
LPAC
WavPack
AudioZip
Audio Monkey
RKAU
 
Thanks a bunch for looking into this and linking me. I definitely think I'm getting somewhere now. :)
 
What I do, is someone start it. Then, just send an mp3 to whomever is next, or to everyone involved. Save the wav files till later. Everyone can play to an mp3, and add the parts they do to it, and save all teh wav's until the song is sorted out. Once everyone is happy with what is happening, then worry about getting the wav's to whomever. The RP has a collab forum, and you can trade wav's there if needed. If you have a few bucks, check out some low cost hosting. I use 1and1.com. Fairly cheap, and plenty of space, and transfer volume.

Just some thoughts.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
What I do, is someone start it. Then, just send an mp3 to whomever is next, or to everyone involved. Save the wav files till later. Everyone can play to an mp3, and add the parts they do to it, and save all teh wav's until the song is sorted out. Once everyone is happy with what is happening, then worry about getting the wav's to whomever. The RP has a collab forum, and you can trade wav's there if needed. If you have a few bucks, check out some low cost hosting. I use 1and1.com. Fairly cheap, and plenty of space, and transfer volume.

Just some thoughts.
Ed
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I'm in awe of your rep power, I've never seen one that high! :D

Ok so if I understand you correctly you're saying that Guy1 records Track1 as a wav, he saves that and puts it into the "mixing bag" then he compresses a copy into Track1.mp3, something lower quality for easy transfer. Then sends Track1.mp3 to Guy2. Guy2 converts the lossy copy of Track1.mp3 back into a wav for digital recording. Track1.mp3 is lossy and bad quality but it doesn't matter too much because it's just a backing track to record to. Guy2 records Track2.wav and uploads it to the "mixing bag" then a lower quality copy "Track2.mp3" is made and passed on to Guy3?

Am I understanding that right? That sounds like a great plan, but if I'm missing something let me know. :)
 
Trent Reznor said:
I'm in awe of your rep power, I've never seen one that high! :D

Ok so if I understand you correctly you're saying that Guy1 records Track1 as a wav, he saves that and puts it into the "mixing bag" then he compresses a copy into Track1.mp3, something lower quality for easy transfer. Then sends Track1.mp3 to Guy2. Guy2 converts the lossy copy of Track1.mp3 back into a wav for digital recording. Track1.mp3 is lossy and bad quality but it doesn't matter too much because it's just a backing track to record to. Guy2 records Track2.wav and uploads it to the "mixing bag" then a lower quality copy "Track2.mp3" is made and passed on to Guy3?

Am I understanding that right? That sounds like a great plan, but if I'm missing something let me know. :)
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No man, you got it. You put up an MP3 of whatever the starter track is...128k, or 192. Just something to play along with. Everyone can do that, and you can just add to it, so everyone sees the direction. Save all work as a wav, but hold on to it until everyone gets their stuff together.

Say a drummer starts. You send the drum track to everyone, so they can get familiar with the tune. Add to it, and see what transpires. It can get messy by the end, but it's just a guide. After everyone records the good stuff, then decide how to get good files to whomever needs them. If you can fork over th $5 a month for hosing, that is easy. If not, you can mail cd's of the wav's or something.
Ed

Oh, and the rep is 1 point for every beer I drink.... :D
 
Dogman said:
No man, you got it. You put up an MP3 of whatever the starter track is...128k, or 192. Just something to play along with. Everyone can do that, and you can just add to it, so everyone sees the direction. Save all work as a wav, but hold on to it until everyone gets their stuff together.

Say a drummer starts. You send the drum track to everyone, so they can get familiar with the tune. Add to it, and see what transpires. It can get messy by the end, but it's just a guide. After everyone records the good stuff, then decide how to get good files to whomever needs them. If you can fork over th $5 a month for hosing, that is easy. If not, you can mail cd's of the wav's or something.
Ed

Oh, and the rep is 1 point for every beer I drink.... :D
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Damn, I'd better go buy a keg if I want to catch up with your rep. :D

I've got my own server and forum at http://www.keepmusicalive.com. If anyone wants to register and join in, the thread for our community recording project is located here!

Thanks for the great detailed explanation, I think that method is perfect. Now I gotta decide which lossless algo to use. They all look pretty much the same, hovering around 2:1 ratio or so.
 
Trent Reznor said:
Now I gotta decide which lossless algo to use. They all look pretty much the same, hovering around 2:1 ratio or so.
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Download this free program and *all* the compression types will be a mouse click away. It's also a great player.
http://www.vuplayer.com/

You will have to find the latest lame dll and put it in the windows directory to get mp3 compression but that's free also.
http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html
 
My only thoughts about using mp3 as a support mechanism is the fact that it is not "sample accurate". This is likely to cause sync problems down the road, and I only say this because I have experienced this myself.
 
lexridge said:
My only thoughts about using mp3 as a support mechanism is the fact that it is not "sample accurate". This is likely to cause sync problems down the road, and I only say this because I have experienced this myself.
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Good point, I think we'll end up going the FLAC route.
 
lexridge said:
My only thoughts about using mp3 as a support mechanism is the fact that it is not "sample accurate". This is likely to cause sync problems down the road, and I only say this because I have experienced this myself.
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I disagree. You must have been using the .mp3 in the recording itself for this to happen.

Even a rather tightly squeezed .mp3 is good enough to be everyone's click track. The actual recordings that are to be mixed to form the collab will all be .wav files so once a sample rate and sample size is determined for the project files they should all line up later seamlessly.
 
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