Need advice on outboard gear purchase

  • Thread starter Thread starter LarryF
  • Start date Start date
Larry,

Why would all samples have to be low quality and compressed? Isn't it just dependent on the original source and original recording signal path of the sample?

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
LarryF, there's a couple of units I'd recommend if you want a smooth, warm sound. Since you're talking stereo keyboard sounds, you'd be wanting something with two channels.

TL Audio C-1 Dual Valve Compressor Beautiful unit - with two pres. You'll get a lot of mileage out of it since you can also use it on the stereo mix.

A-Designs MP-2 Dual Channel Tube Mic Pre. Very smooth and airy valve mic pre.

Not sure how your A/D converters sound, but they're critical. The Lucid AD9624 24-bit stereo 96 kHz A/D Converter is a great unit.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
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atlas said:
I'm not a big MIDI guy, I record real instruments. But from what I understand MIDI to be, it in itself does not actually produce the sounds themselves, it only produces a "map" to tell the sounds (samples) where to play. If he has a sample that already sounds great (like from an expensive keyboard in this case), the source in general should be good already, and as I said it would benefit from a quality front end, specifically as in this case he is outputting from an instrument level into a high impedance direct input. So to say that all MIDI in general is harsh and digital sounding is too general of a statement. If someone samples a 9 foot steinway with DPA's, Millennia preamps, and a pristine ADC to 24 bits I would expect it to sound excellent. Am I wrong about the way MIDI works though?

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
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You are right. MIDI is a map of PERFORMANCE and not of SOUND.
If the performance sucks, the sound will follow.
 
LarryF said:
I didn't realize I was opening up an existential debate over the MIDI-driven decline of western music when I started this thread. It sounds like I drove one person here to an afternoon drinking binge from my wacky post asking for advice on outboard gear for a MIDI composing studio!!! All I can say is, if I caused a drinking binge, then Avalon must've driven that person to heroin, because the venerable VT747SP is specifically marketed as a conditioning tool to use on stereo keyboards in a DAW setup.

But anyway, it isn't my intent to start a war or get anyone a DWI; I'm really just looking to buy some cool gear and I understand a lot of people are anti-MIDI, so Peace. However, here's my view for what it's worth. First, if you're a composer and you want to produce a decent demo product that'll eventually go to live musicians, you still want to produce a quality sound that you can be proud of, and conditioning gear is part of that, even if the "instruments" you record are cheesy compressed samples from a sound module. Second, keyboard players must condition their sound in the recording process, and their sound comes from samples or synths, not acoustic instruments (unless piano). And finally, there are a lot of mediocre musicians out there, and I'll be damned if I haven't heard some pros extract sound quality out of XVs and Tritons and especially PC2Rs and K2600s that will positively blow away guys with 10 grand worth of mics and pres who can't play or arrange their music. To each his own - I think MIDI studios are cool and I built one, but MIDI music is thin and harsh, and needs some sort of polishing, and that's why it is sensible to look at outboard gear for MIDI modules and keyboards.
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You need to look at your MIDI sequencer. MIDI "sound" does not exist. MIDI is not harsh or thin. You should visit some MIDI sites and learn how to set your MIDI messages in your sequencer so that you get the full benefits of the "performance" end of MIDI.
 
Thanks everyone for the guidance. I got a careful listen to a TLAC-1 at a friend's studio tonight and was mighty impressed, for both stereo instrument and mic input.

Acolec, when talking about the sound quality of a MIDI module, I'm referring to the audio output of the module, of course, not the MIDI sequence. But your point's quite a good one I think - it can be very difficult to separate an evaluation of a module's samples from the performance characteristics. For exactly that reason since '89 when I bought Cakewalk version 1.0 (!) and a Proteus 1 (along with a Korg T2 which I still use), I've always used the same two sequences to test any module (Prelude # 6 [d minor] from Bach's Well Tempered Clavier book 1, and a GM sequence of Walk Away Renee, strangely enough). I agree the PC2R sounds good and I usually use no processing on the audio coming out of that box; I can't say the same of my other sound sources. A good example of the issue that brought this thread to existence is the Korg Triton. Many Triton sounds are lush and full because of all the effects, but you really have to take those effects off when putting it into a mix - and then the samples are revealed as thin and weak, and in desperate need of conditioning of some sort. Of course, better samples in the first place would help enormously, but you gotta work with the gear you have.

Chessrock, good god man, do you at some point get tired of the make-sarcastic-comments-at-newcomers'-posts-from-the-sidelines schtick? That's so banal. If I type something like "You are a super-savvy insider with world-class knowledge, and I am a clueless amateur who shouldn't even be here" will you either stop, or post something of value?
 
LarryF said:
Chessrock, good god man, do you at some point get tired of the make-sarcastic-comments-at-newcomers'-posts-from-the-sidelines schtick? That's so banal. If I type something like "You are a super-savvy insider with world-class knowledge, and I am a clueless amateur who shouldn't even be here" will you either stop, or post something of value?
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That might not be a bad idea. I can always use my ego stroked. Dude, it's a right of passage. :D

I got it a lot worse than you, back in the day.

At least neither of us got pig guts thrown at us by a bunch of powder-puff girls or anything. :D I hear that can get pretty hairy -- especially when someone forgets to turn the camera off.

You obviously haven't asked this sort of question at Prosoundweb. Those guys would have torn you apart and made me look like the sweet old lady accross the street who bakes you muffins. I could have easily refered your question over there, but I thought I'd take it easy on you.
 
funny you should say that, because in my last post I was going to note that at least on discussion board initiation rituals no one can pour feces on your head.
 
Well, from the looks of things, I think Hottsauce might be a casualty. I think I spotted him trying to get the doo-doo out of his hair, poor guy. Maybe he'll be back. I guess I contributed to that one, and I feel kinda' bad about that -- but I did think he was joking. My bad.

Did you happen to catch that mess?
 
chessrock said:
Well, from the looks of things, I think Hottsauce might be a casualty. I think I spotted him trying to get the doo-doo out of his hair, poor guy. Maybe he'll be back. I guess I contributed to that one, and I feel kinda' bad about that -- but I did think he was joking. My bad.

Did you happen to catch that mess?
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That guy was yankin us big time. He was having fun.
 
QUOTE: Hi, I'm interested in opinions from anyone on an upcoming purchase I want to make. I use MOTU DP3 with a MOTU 828, MOTU MidiExpressXT, Apple G4 dual 1 gig, and Mackie Control (the "MOTU Studio" concept, I guess). I've been using Waves Native Gold for effects.

If you are getting a cold sound there's a few things you can do about it. First and perhaps foremost, you should consider getting a couple channels of *really good* AD converters. Add to that a 2-3 excellent DI boxes and two channels of high quality preamps. When recording, you would run your synths through a DI into the preamp and from there into your better converters.

What I have as far as DI's are a couple Groove Tubes DITTO's and a couple channels of Jensen passive DI's. I use a Grace 201 preamp and for two channels of conversion I have a hardware Waves L2.

I don't see the point of you dropping a bundle on expensive preamps/channel strips until you've upgraded your AD conversion, as that is probably the primary source of the digital coldness you speak of.
 
Interesting, Albert. Can you indulge me in a newbie question? I already have a MOTU 828 (and also a Delta 1010) which I understand to basically be sound cards + A/D D/A converters. So would a couple of channels of high-grade AD converters be something that runs in parallel with the 828 or would it go into/out of the 828? I've seen A/D converters costing thousands and I don't quite grasp the relationship between them and your run of the mill $700 sound cards.
 
to make my question more exact, what is the difference between an A/D converter and an audio interface like the 828 (which presumably has A/D conversion on 8 different inputs and outputs).
 
LarryF said:
to make my question more exact, what is the difference between an A/D converter and an audio interface like the 828 (which presumably has A/D conversion on 8 different inputs and outputs).
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A/D converters only convert digital to analog and vice versa. You would run the analog into the converter and then run the digital output to a recording device that accepts digital signals. The main difference between standalone A/D converters and the converters on something like the 828 is quality. Just like standalone pres are much better quality (in most cases) than the pres in a mixer, standalone A/D converters are much better than the converters you'll find in a typical recording soundcard.
 
cominginsecond explained it very well.

The standalone AD converters would feed the 828 or the Delta 1010. It is an issue of quality.

The other thing is again the recording chain. I believe in keeping that simple and clean. Put your synths into a great DI then into a great preamp and then into a great AD converter. I think you will hear a big difference between that and running your synth outputs directly to the 828 or 1010 inputs.

Choice of preamp and DI have a big effect on tone. For budget reasons, I personally would suggest that you pick up a couple channels of a clean uncolored preamp, and mate that with several different types of DI's. You may be surprised at how much the DI can shape the synth tone. My DITTO's sound very different than the passive Jensens. Both sound great though.

It gets expensive quickly, but I've read great things about the inexpensive RNP preamp, made by FMR Audio. I believe this is in the uncolored camp. It also can be used as a DI, so you'd already have one tone color right there.

Good converters are expensive, but since your sound is very dependent on them, they ultimately are worth the expense. I do hate spending money on converters though! It just seems unfortunate to put money into something that just gets the sound from here to there. Other gear is much more fun to buy than converters.
 
You can also improve your A/D a lot less inexpensively by purchasing a separate outboard word clock. There should be nothing wrong with the A/D in a MOTU or a Delta 1010 that an external wordclock couldn't clean up quite a bit.

I'd do some research on the word clock idea and see what you come up with.
 
I love that: "You can also improve your A/D a lot less inexpensively...". What a great line and how true! My outboard master word clock cost $1,500! Maybe the good ones have come down since then, we can only hope.

The point is again that quality costs money. So don't buy a budget word clock generator. Chances are that a better converter will also be able to provide better clock sync to the rest of your system as well, without the immediate need of a separate sync generator.

I have an AardSyncII, and it has been wonderful. It's just that on limited budget you've got to get the most bang for the buck, and that usually means you put your money where you can hear it most.

Seems like I've made some "less inexpensive" gear purchases lately!
 
Larry the smoothness you hear on CDs comes from the following:

1) Real musical instruments tracked to tape

2) Great micing technique

3) Mastering - a lot of times the final smooth touch comes only from an experienced ME.


There isn't one piece of gear that is good for everything no matter how much it cost. My suggestion is find a studio which has a big selection of outboard and see if you can book a session for two hours, sure it will cost you some money, but in the end you will be happy. Or see if your local music stores carry anything that Mercenary Audio has on their website or talk to Fletcher he's very knowledgeable guy. Also are you looking for a tracking device to use on each instrument or just something over the final mix? I've noticed that your set up doesn't have an analog mixer, something like Midas Venice will certainly improve your mix, rather then harshness of digital summing. I think Atlas nailed it on the spot, the first thing is to improve your AD/DA a lot of time what's where you get your fatness or smooth sound, so Cranesong HEDD would be on the top of the list for me as well. I m also DP3/1224 user and ever since I bought Midas Venice 160 there is a smile on my face. I record/mix mostly house music, but recently drawn more to Jazz House something like this guy:

http://www.stgermain.co.uk/


Things to consider if you decide to mix in digital:


Cranesong HEDD
Lucid AD + Fatso
Avalon - check 747 or two 737s
Cranesong Tracker
Api racks with different modules

Or Inward Connections SBM-2 summing box about $3200 US but Class A all the way.

well there is still too much to choose from. Or you can do a research. Find out who worked on your favorite CDs and see if you can find out what was used during recording/Tracking mixing/mastering - it's a long shot, but worth a try. Remember sometimes less is more try to get the best sound when you're tracking/composing without adding any processing at all.

Cheers

P.S. I still regret selling Focusrite ISA 115 - now that was a fat EQ/Pre
 
 
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