Myths

[mshilarious]

Van Halen's success doesn't even come close to matching the Beach Boys, or Chicago for that matter! (Hard to believe, but true)

AC/DC sold more albums (BnB did 19) than the Beach Boys (Pet Sounds, for example, barely made gold, thanks to lax promotion); I believe Beach Boys and Chicago are pretty close in terms of single sales or maybe it was Top 40 hits, I forget, at the top of US bands. I'm pretty sure Michael Jackson and Elvis have more Top 40 hits though and of course so do the Beatles.

Van Halen had two albums sell 10 million, but didn't make the list for the gold/platinum album count:

http://www.classicbands.com/bestsellers.html

Chicago is an interesting example. The horn section was trained, Kath wasn't, I don't know about the rest. Really, it's pretty hard for a horn section to be completely untrained, and Chicago's was noted for its clever orchestrations.

The Beach Boys had limited training; Murry Wilson was a songwriter but I don't know his background that well, but the kids seemed to have learned from him. Brian used the best available musicians in LA, the Wrecking Crew, to cut the Beach Boys' most highly regarded tracks.

 

[ez_willis]

Steve Vai's Passion and Warfare sold over a million copies,

To his mom!

 

[EddieRay]

Lord, no! You have it half-assed backwards! In the words of Eddie Van Halen, when talking about his producer Don Landee,

"I used to respect him until I found out he went to school for this shit, lol"

Eddie's an exceptional player. There are plenty of exceptions. Maybe you're one. I think exceptions are proof that real talent will not allow itself to be suppressed. It will surface no matter what. But I also think you're missing some valuable points about music theory. It's just a stuffy way of saying "here's a cool musical idea." It's a lot of really interesting things about something you already love. It's a way to get better at what you're already good at. It's a language you can use to communicate with other musicians. How can any of that work against you?

 

[boingoman]

"The only thing reading music if good for is playing something that someone else already wrote, fuck that, I write my own music!"

It should be noted that Van Halen was one of the most popular cover bands before they started performing thier own songs. Eddie learned the covers by ear, like many if not most cover bands do.

It should also be noted the Eddie was a classically-trained contest-winning piano player as a child and continued his formal music education and training until his mid-teens at least. He can read music, and probably knows theory inside and out.

 

[EDAN]

Van Halen's success doesn't even come close to matching the Beach Boys, or Chicago for that matter! (Hard to believe, but true)

Actaully, I should have said most successful hard rock band, record sales and touring revenue. Aerosmith is second.

 

[EDAN]

Eddie's an exceptional player. There are plenty of exceptions. Maybe you're one. I think exceptions are proof that real talent will not allow itself to be suppressed. It will surface no matter what. But I also think you're missing some valuable points about music theory. It's just a stuffy way of saying "here's a cool musical idea." It's a lot of really interesting things about something you already love. It's a way to get better at what you're already good at. It's a language you can use to communicate with other musicians. How can any of that work against you?

Theory might mkae some a more informed musician, it might help you to understand how things come together, but it can't tell you WHY something sounds the way it does, why it feels good, why it can bring out your emotions. Like I said before, you (not you personally) do your thing I'll do mine. The magic comes from the unknown if you ask me, knowing how a dishwasher works doesn't get the dishes any cleaner. Not knowing how you are "supposed" to do something, whether that's playing the piano or songwriting or boxing (Roy Jones did everything technically wrong, Ali to a lesser extent) can produce magic in itself, you don't limit yourself, you try things people "in the know" would never try because it's not "supposed" to be done that way which can lead to great things. If some people like to approach music in white lab coats more power to them, imo they are missing the whole point. Someone keeps mentioning Sting as an "educated" musician and songwriter. First off, Sting came from punk and imo his best work was his early Police stuff, very simple music long before he became this annoying "educated" musician. I'm not a Police fan but they had two or three ok songs. Now, everything he's done in the last 20 years sounds like muzak, vanilla elevator music with no emotion, terrible lyrics designed to sound intellectual and deep, computer like perfection using computer like studio musicians. I don't think Sting is a good songwriter at all, I think he's a "perfect" musician .. and that's too bad. George Martin said he hates click tracks .. I bet Sting loves them.

There's in old saying when it comes to playing music, "If you have to think about it, it's probably not a good idea"

 

[boingoman]

Someone keeps mentioning Sting as an "educated" musician and songwriter. First off, Sting came from punk and imo his best work was his early Police stuff, very simple music long before he became this annoying "educated" musician."

Dude, I kind of get your point, but get your facts straight. Sting was also a big jazz/prog rock player before the Police, and knew what he was doing musically.

 

[mshilarious]

Actaully, I should have said most successful hard rock band, record sales and touring revenue. Aerosmith is second.

If you refer back to the last link I posted, Aerosmith, AC/DC, and KISS all have more album sales than Van Halen.

Tour revenue I had a harder time finding, I could see references to an all-time chart but no totals. I did find this:

http://www.pollstaronline.com/images/ye2004-top50.gif

Tour revenue is a difficult gauge anyway unless adjusted for inflation. Ticket sales would be more interesting, but everybody seems to like nominal dollars. It's that way for movies too, even though the distortion there is much worse than for concerts.

 

[ez_willis]

Dude, I kind of get your point, but get your facts straight. Sting was also a big jazz/prog rock player before the Police, and knew what he was doing musically.

...and Roy Jones did not do everything wrong, technically.

He grew up raising roosters and emulated their fighting techniques. It worked for him for a long ass time. And I don't like RJJ.

 

[CoolCat]

and Slim Whitman was bigger than the Beatles!!
by about 5 inches.

EVH as I recall had a new sound, original, fresh on the first one, everyone was blown away in my area, same as AC/DC and many others. But EVH to me was the new era had arrived post Zepplin....I never really cared for any of the others as far as being new, the style was the same....same with ACDC, you could by Back In Black and pretty much have all their albums "sound".

Getting your own sound is a big step, but I think most go thru years of trying to sound like the "CD" first...then a light bulb goes off and the band realizes the difference between a "cover band" and "their own sound"....the latter being even more difficult, but not necassarily...is it harder to be yourself or someone else.

I don't know either sometimes.

 

[Reggie]

Theory might mkae some a more informed musician, it might help you to understand how things come together, but it can't tell you WHY something sounds the way it does, why it feels good, why it can bring out your emotions. Like I said before, you (not you personally) do your thing I'll do mine. The magic comes from the unknown if you ask me, knowing how a dishwasher works doesn't get the dishes any cleaner. Not knowing how you are "supposed" to do something, whether that's playing the piano or songwriting or boxing (Roy Jones did everything technically wrong, Ali to a lesser extent) can produce magic in itself, you don't limit yourself, you try things people "in the know" would never try because it's not "supposed" to be done that way which can lead to great things. If some people like to approach music in white lab coats more power to them, imo they are missing the whole point. Someone keeps mentioning Sting as an "educated" musician and songwriter. First off, Sting came from punk and imo his best work was his early Police stuff, very simple music long before he became this annoying "educated" musician. I'm not a Police fan but they had two or three ok songs. Now, everything he's done in the last 20 years sounds like muzak, vanilla elevator music with no emotion, terrible lyrics designed to sound intellectual and deep, computer like perfection using computer like studio musicians. I don't think Sting is a good songwriter at all, I think he's a "perfect" musician .. and that's too bad. George Martin said he hates click tracks .. I bet Sting loves them.

There's in old saying when it comes to playing music, "If you have to think about it, it's probably not a good idea"

Well now you are talking about artistry (or magic I guess); not musicianship. Can't you see the difference? An artist may take up painting as their medium, or guitar, or public displays or whatever. A *good* musician knows music, the theory, the lingo, the scales, etc. They may suck at putting emotion into it, but they know what they are doing musically. Good Artist+GoodMusician makes the best combo in my book. But a person can sell a lot of tickets on good artistry alone...

 

[Farview]

You just couldn't imagine what life is like for someone as famous as him and all the people coming up to him every time he goes out in public. I met Eddie Three times, just short conversations mind you, but he was really nice each time. He's a warm person, I remember the last time I was introduced to him at NAMM and I brought up the fact I had met him in my earlier years a couple of times, He put his hand on my shoulder and had an almost "I'm sorry" look on his face and said somthing like "aw, man, I wish I could say I remember, but I must have met a million people" then shook my hand and said, "take care, Eric", my name's Edan, but he tried

As far as taking advice from him, why would you? He's only one of the top three or four most famous most influential guitarist of all times who was huge part of the most sucessful American Band of all times. Gee, I cans ee why his advice wouldn't be for you.

I don't see him 'in public'. These are after show parties and things like that. I've run into him 4 or 5 times a year on average for about the last 15 years. (not so much lately with the hip replacement, cancer and my schedule) The last time I saw him was at Dimebags funeral. He is an idiot/savant. He is really great at what he does but he doesn't know why. His drinking has taken it's toll on his mind. He is still a very nice, talented guy, but he is really out of it most of the time. Much of what comes out of his mouth is rehearsed, rock star dogma and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Zed10R]

No, it's because those same old chords sound better than anything else! That's why ACDC sold a hundred million records and Steve Vai sold six thousand!

Edan, do you ever think about things like.....how intellectually lazy and culturally retarded most people are? Don't you think music deserves to be taken to higher levels than intellectually lazy and culturally retarded people are able to go? Don't you think that art - creativity of every kind - ought to be one of the most encouraged and supported persuits of any society? Do you aspire to be better at what you do than you are right now? Do you ever have creative ideas that are difficult to express? Do you ever try to make music that reaches in, touches your soul, and alters your perception for a few minutes?

I ask you these questions because it is becoming more and more appearant to me that you have achived some level mediocrity but are unaware of, or do not care about, the bigger picture. Vai is 10,000 times the musician, in evey sense of the word, than all of AC/DC put together. More expressive, more effective, more articulate, more intelligent, more everything. AC/DC is a toddler who can only paint smiley faces, but they make you feel good in a small way. Vai is Picasso. It just makes no sense to say that the toddler is the better painter because 10 million people bought a smiley face and only 1000 people bought Picasso. What it DOES mean is that a small number of people are move advanced than the masses in their ability to really understand, appreciate, and experience art.

That is, of course, my opinion.

 

[ez_willis]

My last and final myth: This thread will end at some point.

 

[mshilarious]

I ask you these questions because it is becoming more and more appearant to me that you have achived some level mediocrity but are unaware of, or do not care about, the bigger picture. Vai is 10,000 times the musician, in evey sense of the word, than all of AC/DC put together. More expressive, more effective, more articulate, more intelligent, more everything. AC/DC is a toddler who can only paint smiley faces, but they make you feel good in a small way. Vai is Picasso. It just makes no sense to say that the toddler is the better painter because 10 million people bought a smiley face and only 1000 people bought Picasso. What it DOES mean is that a small number of people are move advanced than the masses in their ability to really understand, appreciate, and experience art.

Stravinsky is Picasso, but nicer

Vai could be Paganini, I suppose.

 

[Zed10R]

Stravinsky is Picasso, but nicer

Vai could be Paganini, I suppose.

OK...you got me there....

 

[EddieRay]

Theory might mkae some a more informed musician, it might help you to understand how things come together, but it can't tell you WHY something sounds the way it does, why it feels good, why it can bring out your emotions. Like I said before, you (not you personally) do your thing I'll do mine. The magic comes from the unknown if you ask me, knowing how a dishwasher works doesn't get the dishes any cleaner. Not knowing how you are "supposed" to do something, whether that's playing the piano or songwriting or boxing (Roy Jones did everything technically wrong, Ali to a lesser extent) can produce magic in itself, you don't limit yourself, you try things people "in the know" would never try because it's not "supposed" to be done that way which can lead to great things. If some people like to approach music in white lab coats more power to them, imo they are missing the whole point. Someone keeps mentioning Sting as an "educated" musician and songwriter. First off, Sting came from punk and imo his best work was his early Police stuff, very simple music long before he became this annoying "educated" musician. I'm not a Police fan but they had two or three ok songs. Now, everything he's done in the last 20 years sounds like muzak, vanilla elevator music with no emotion, terrible lyrics designed to sound intellectual and deep, computer like perfection using computer like studio musicians. I don't think Sting is a good songwriter at all, I think he's a "perfect" musician .. and that's too bad. George Martin said he hates click tracks .. I bet Sting loves them.

There's in old saying when it comes to playing music, "If you have to think about it, it's probably not a good idea"

I think real musicians (real talent, not nessesarily schooled talent) find themselves attracted to theory in some way, and drive themselves to become more accomplished musicians.

Your comments in this thread make it clear that you're not attracted to theory in any way and you measure musical success in terms of units sold.

Say what you will. Here's another old saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

[fraserhutch]

Say what you will. Here's another old saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Too late Haven't you guys twigged onto the fact that's he's nothing but a troll?

 

[Dogman]

My last and final myth: This thread will end at some point.

It might, and it might not. That could be a good question though....

 

[Fletcher]

My last and final myth: This thread will end at some point.

There was a rule on "Usenet" called "Godwinn's Rule" which was that any thread must end when the word "Hitler" comes up.

Any thread where you've been beating a dead horse for 6 or more pages really [REALLY] should end.

Whaddaya say? Time to give it a portion or what?

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