Myths

[fraserhutch]

I don't see anything unreasonable about the post you quoted by EDAN...

Until he posts something to back up his mouth, he's just another anonymous coward knocking other's music, saying "I can do better".

In his case, put up or shut up.

 

[EDAN]

So if someone can't learn something on their own, they should give it up?

Pretty much

Are you honestly going to sit there and try to tell me that every "good" musician to you has been totally, 100% self-taught?

Not at every, only the best ones

And by the way, your Mr. Eddie Van Halen studied piano as a youngster. Sure, he quit because he didn't like "the rules," but I GUARANTEE that he's put to use some of the things he learned while he was taking those lessons (such as ... basic keyboard technique, for instance).

Now, you don't know who you are messing with. I know all there is to know about VH. Eddie never learned to read music, he learned the notes, but could never apply them to site reading. He won state piano competitions in college two years in a row and was complimented for making the compositions his own! He laughed it off admitting he learned them by ear and his "making them his own" was simply him playing them wrong!

 

[fraserhutch]

Says you. This stuff isn't rocket science! If you can't pick up an instrument and eventually make music on it all by your lonesome without anyone interfering and messing YOUR technique up than it's not meant to be. Now, this does not mean you don't put in the work, the practice, but if you need someone to teach you fingering techniques on guitar or piano, etc., or babbling about "theory" then maybe you should try a sport instead. There is no right technique for any instrument, just get a sound out of it, man, just make some noise, your noise! that's what it's about! A true artist has his own methods, that's what makes Eddie Van Halen Eddie Van Halen and not Steve Vai or any of those other over the top tasteless hacks with all the learned technique in the world but NO SOUL. That's what made Bonzo Bonzo and not Neil Peart or those other over the top tasteless hacks with all the learned technique in the world but no SOUL! Get my drift? Art is all about the individual finding his own way though and out of the forrest on his own!!! or better yet, never finding his way out!


Eddie Van Halen:

"If you go by the book how are you supposed to come up with anything new? I guess I'm writing my own book .. or trying to"

Piss poor example. Eddie Van Halen studied the guitar and music theory. He developed his own style FROM those he learned. This is the case of almost all truly great innovators - in ANY field - they study what went on before and broke rules. BUT!!!! They knew what rules to break and had the tools to do it.

And once again, knowledge of theory or skill on an instrument is not what makes a good musician. Talent (or soul) is necessary. I also argue that soul by itself is not enough to make a good musician, but it's a great place to start.

 

[EDAN]

Piss poor example. Eddie Van Halen studied the guitar and music theory. He developed his own style FROM those he learned. This is the case of almost all truly great innovators - in ANY field - they study what went on before and broke rules. BUT!!!! They knew what rules to break and had the tools to do it.

And once again, knowledge of theory or skill on an instrument is not what makes a good musician. Talent (or soul) is necessary. I also argue that soul by itself is not enough to make a good musician, but it's a great place to start.

Sorry, but I used to be an Eddie VH fanatic and although brother Alex says he learned a lot from music theory, Eddie thinks different. I've heard the only song released that Al Van Halen wrote and played piano on, it's on the TWISTER soundtrack and if that's the result of studying theory, well then I think that's too bad. On the other hand, BB king, Keith Richard's and Hendrix would have to look up the word theory in the dictionary, Either you have it or you don't, PERIOD.


Oh and the biggest myth of all is the old "You have to know the rules to break them" BS. Give me a freakin break, THERE ARE NO RULES!, none, nada! Try another cliche.

 

[Creamyapples1]

Since when did "theory" become a "rule"?

 

[Reggie]

Hmmmm....interesting stuff. I was thinking, what if we applied this logic to electricians or something. Would you call a guy a great electrician if he didn't really know the rules or terminology, but instead had taught himself ways to make things work? Might be a guy who has a talent for hooking stuff up, but I don't know if I would call him a great electrician.

I wonder if to be considered a great musician, one should know his craft inside out--all the terms, theory, performance techniques, etc.
Now all these guys you list are no doubt great artists, performers, talents, or whatever; but I think you should be able to communicate in the established lingo of musicians to really fit in under the term.

I dunno, just musing. Not trying to pick a fight.

Since when did "theory" become a "rule"?

Nice point!

 

[eraos]

Not at every, only the best ones

Can you give some examples?

 

[fraserhutch]

Sorry, but I used to be an Eddie VH fanatic and although brother Alex says he learned a lot from music theory, Eddie thinks different. I've heard the only song released that Al Van Halen wrote and played piano on, it's on the TWISTER soundtrack and if that's the result of studying theory, well then I think that's too bad. On the other hand, BB king, Keith Richard's and Hendrix would have to look up the word theory in the dictionary, Either you have it or you don't, PERIOD.


Oh and the biggest myth of all is the old "You have to know the rules to break them" BS. Give me a freakin break, THERE ARE NO RULES!, none, nada! Try another cliche.

He may think that now he didn't learn a lot, there would be no doubt that it influenced his playing.

And as for the example of Al you quote, again, that's really poor logic there dude. The fact that someone has some theory under their belt does not imply that they're a good musician.

As for there being rules, of course there are. It's sad that you don't recognize them for ehat they are, but they exist. Why am I not surprised???

In fact, I have rtarely if at all heard anything at all in the pop realm that didn't comform to some set of rules.

 

[fraserhutch]

Since when did "theory" become a "rule"?

All theory is a set of rules. You may not like the particular word, but it is the truth.

 

[fraserhutch]

Pretty much



Not at every, only the best ones


Now, you don't know who you are messing with. I know all there is to know about VH. Eddie never learned to read music, he learned the notes, but could never apply them to site reading. He won state piano competitions in college two years in a row and was complimented for making the compositions his own! He laughed it off admitting he learned them by ear and his "making them his own" was simply him playing them wrong!

He still learnt the rules. You're making the mistake of assuming that one needs to study music theory in a school.

One can learn by osmosis, by studying what has occurred before them, learning what makes it tick, learning the "rules", and then taking what you've learnt and applying it to your own voice.

 

[mshilarious]

Oh and the biggest myth of all is the old "You have to know the rules to break them" BS. Give me a freakin break, THERE ARE NO RULES!, none, nada! Try another cliche.

The biggest misconception about theory is that it is a bunch of rules. That isn't really the case, unless you are writing traditional four-part harmony or something. Like a theory about anything else, it is mostly a set of observations. By learning theory, you are learning how to describe and communicate aspects of your music, not how to make it kowtow to a predefined approved chord change list.

If anything, rock musicians are far more conservative than musicians in genres where theory is more highly regarded. In classical or jazz, nobody cares if a piece is in 4/4 or 7/4 any more than they care if it's in C or Eb. The piece is judged on its merits, not on its time or key signature.

"Rule-breaking" is self-serving rock propaganda. Try the same thing in rock, and instantly you become a "progressive" who "learned theory" and "plays by the rules" but "doesn't have soul" Yes, soul only exists in 4/4 or maybe 6/8 And it definitely doesn't exist outside of modulations to the vi, II, or V

You tell me who is following rules and who is breaking them

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

THERE ARE NO RULES!

Try anothe cliche.

Music theory is based upon harmonic theory, which itself is a subset of physics. There's a reason why certain tonalities sound good and others not so good. It's because those are the rules by which the universe is constructed. Those rules cannot be broken, because they are the fundamental laws of creation itself.

Now do different people disagree on what they think sounds pleasing and what they don't? Of course they do, that's their basic right (another rule, BTW.) But regardless of personal opinion, every style of music, even bebop and as far as the microtones of Maqam music, follows rules based upon the physics of harmonic theory.

Does one need to know a given theory in-depth? No not necessarily. Does not knowing the theory mean they are not following the theory? NO, it doesn't. EVH may not have consciously known which part of music theory he was following when he hacked together his stuff, but every time he came back to the one or used tension and release and inverted a I-IV-V progression, he was "following the rules". Whenever he unknowingly "broke the rules", the threw it out because it sounded lousy.

Does knowing music theory expand one's possibilities? Absolutely. Knowing how to play a chord as an inverted 7th or as an implied chord, instead of just the straight up salute that every hack guitar player that comes down the pike knows, can really open up the specific feeling one can give to what would otherwise be a run-of-the-mill blues progression. It's that kind of knowledge of theory and technique that can make the difference between being a real musician and star and a garage band wannabe whose music all just sounds like a hack EVH knockoff.

As much as the headbangers will disagree, there is *much* more to getting soul and emotion into music than just volume and distortion.

Saying there are no rules is the fallback position of those who do not wish to learn them.

G.

 

[fraserhutch]

The biggest misconception about theory is that it is a bunch of rules. That isn't really the case, unless you are writing traditional four-part harmony or something. Like a theory about anything else, it is mostly a set of observations. By learning theory, you are learning how to describe and communicate aspects of your music, not how to make it kowtow to a predefined approved chord change list.

I disagree, maybe the concept of what "rules" are is what the problem is here.
Every genre has its own set of "rules" that define what that genre is.

If anything, rock musicians are far more conservative than musicians in genres where theory is more highly regarded. In classical or jazz, nobody cares if a piece is in 4/4 or 7/4 any more than they care if it's in C or Eb. The piece is judged on its merits, not on its time or key signature.

I agree with this.

"Rule-breaking" is self-serving rock propaganda. Try the same thing in rock, and instantly you become a "progressive" who "learned theory" and "plays by the rules" but "doesn't have soul" Yes, soul only exists in 4/4 or maybe 6/8 And it definitely doesn't exist outside of modulations to the vi, II, or V

You tell me who is following rules and who is breaking them

I agree with the sentiment.

That said, every innovator is breaking "rules" that exist for a particular genre. These rules are defacto rules rather than de jure rules, and what this realy means here is that the innovator is taking what currently exists and breaking some of these "rules" to create something really different.

Call then rules, or principles or whatever.

You name the genre, and one could point out set of "rules" that exist for that genre.

 

[EDAN]

Then put your money where your mouth is - post links of your stuff up here to prove your boasts.

My point is, he puts his stuff up there. You don't.

I told you I'd post something, geesh, give a guy a chance. I just joined soundclick and just uploaded it so it might not be posted for the public yet, if not try the link later.

Clickdis


Here's a country pop type song I "produced" and "engineered" Now, for those of you who say I'm not a real producer or engineer because I wasn't trained or because I know zilch as far as the technical end goes I say if you still think that after hearing the results I get you're off your rocker. I played acoustic guitar, piano and drums. My buddy played electric guitar. The singer is a friend from TN who was in town. The song was written by a local songwriter named Adam Green. Adam played bass and violin/fiddle.

I know nothing about theory and very little in way of proper or learned technique. I'm self taught and play by ear, record by ear, use effects processors by ear, "mastered" by ear, etc., etc., etc. I don't claim to know what I'm doing, but I do claim I get good results and that's all that matters to me. My total home studio used to record this demo cost me less than $2,000, cheap gear! Nuff said.

Tascam TSR-8 1/2
Tascam M-308 mixer
Behringer MDX 1400 compressor
FatMan compressor
Sony DPS-V55
Zoom RFX 2000
Behringer bass amp
Behringer DSP 9024
SP B-1
SP B-3
Superlux mics (various models)
Shure 57
A $300 set of "Union" import cheapo drums (that sound every bit as good as any high end kit I've ever owned .. though the build qulity isn't on par).

 

[Fletcher]

Well this train has been hurled from the tracks at an amazing rate of speed...

Somehow, I think the Faber College motto applies here: "Knowledge is Good."

You should probably just work from that point and move on...

 

[Creamyapples1]

All theory is a set of rules. You may not like the particular word, but it is the truth.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm of the mindset that it works a particular way, so it should be done as it is intended, with great emphasis on creativity and objectivity.

I guess maybe what I'm tryin to say is: The word "rule" in regards to "theory" is sometimes thrown around as if it is Gospel and should be strictly adhered to. While I do agree that there are certain ways that things should be done, there are also numerous paths that can be taken. Some people tend to be very sensitive when it comes to the idea of their own creativity (EDAN comes to mind) These people take offense to being told there are "rules". Just an observation. IMHO, Theory is more the building block, a gathering of the functionality of music and how it can be applied. Note: CAN be, NOT shall be, has to be or must be. The topic is as broad as it is long, and I think we all take different things from it based on our personal experiences and growth. Is there a right or wrong? When it comes to the hard facts, sure. When it comes to creativity? Not at all.

 

[EDAN]

Saying there are no rules is the fallback position of those who do not wish to learn them.

G.

BS. It's the people who weren't born with "it" that try to gain "it" via learning theory and "studying" music etc etc etc, they can become technically good musicians, they can get work, they can lead a happy musical life, but they'll NEVER gain "IT", never. Now, before you take me the wrong way, I say more power to those taking that route, I really mean that, but don't for a minute think they will ever play guitar like Clapton or my brother for that matter, who knows about as much about theory as me and Muddy Waters, but is full of soul and was born with that magic "it" factor. I've been around some of the very best studio musicians here in Austin as well as in Nashville were I used to live, those guys can play ANYTHING, but very few can play like my brother. I'm not meaning to make my brother out to be the biggest talent on earth, I'm trying to make a point that you shouldn't mess with the talent of some people, that finding their own way, their own sound is what it's all about. You can't explain that to some people, but hey, I tried.

 

[Farview]

Edan, I listened to the song. It sounds great. What rules did you break to make it sound so good?

 

[Creamyapples1]

BS. It's the people who weren't born with "it" that try to gain "it" via learning theory and "studying" music etc etc etc, they can become technically good musicians, they can get work, they can lead a happy musical life, but they'll NEVER gain "IT", never. Now, before you take me the wrong way, I say more power to those taking that route, I really mean that, but don't for a minute think they will ever play guitar like Clapton or my brother for that matter, who knows about as much about theory as me and Muddy Waters, but is full of soul and was born with that magic "it" factor. I've been around some of the very best studio musicians here in Austin as well as in Nashville were I used to live, those guys can play ANYTHING, but very few can play like my brother. I'm not meaning to make my brother out to be the biggest talent on earth, I'm trying to make a point that you shouldn't mess with the talent of some people, that finding their own way, their own sound is what it's all about. You can't explain that to some people, but hey, I tried.

Noone will deny that some people just "get it". I played for years with no formal training, I can usually jump right in with just about anything. About a year ago, I started reading and practicing theory and I'm happy to report that I've progressed by leaps and bounds.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that you are an asshole because you don't know theory. People are trying to say you are an asshole for blatanly dismissing the absolute truth. Whether you like it or not, there are far more people that have benefitted from its use than there are people that have benefitted from not using it. How you use it is up to YOU!

 

[Creamyapples1]

Edan, I listened to the song. It sounds great. What rules did you break to make it sound so good?

QUALITY! lol irl