Myths

[mrT]

That is very true. But there's nothing wrong with knowing some theory. It's just a matter of using it tastefully.

Absolutely not, I never said there was. I just don't like it when people with college educations in music look down on other people because they "know more about music"

I'll stand by my post. This board is for helping people of all levels in recording. NOT for making fun of them. I think those are three of the biggest myths that get spread around these boards.

Aren't you in art school? How is photography different in that respect than music?

Art and music are the same thing for different senses to me. It's all about the emotion you're looking to create. If how you record gets the sound that fits don't worry about what people say about the gear that you did it with.

 

[Fletch-X]

This response came up yesterday in the thread "Recreating a classic album???"... and while I was kind of unnecessarily harsh in my original response... it was because it struck a nerve.

There are so many myths and so much bullshit that flies around, especially in the "Home Recording" areas that it just kinda got to me.

I started this thread with the hope that other "myths" could be discussed and put to sleep once and for all [like the bullshit myth that you can't plug a ribbon mic into anything running phantom power or the world will end]...

After you get done skipping over my diatribe from hell... maybe y'all could come up with some of the other mythological crap started by some of the half trained idiots of our industry and we can put some of them to bed.
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With all due respect Rico you haven't got the remotest clue of what the fuck you're talking about.

Beggar's Banquet was made in Olympic Studios in London on the second deck made for Olympic by their tech at the time; Dick Swettenham. Dick Swettenham was subsequently bankrolled by Chris Blackwell [Island Records] to start the console manufacturing company called "Helios".

The desk at Olympic was 24 channels with 8 busses. The equalizer was a 3 band that featured a 10kHz shelf boost only, 6 selectable midrange frequencies [which were also boost only but switchable between "peak" (additive EQ) or "trough" (subtractive EQ)] with a 50Hz boost only feature on the low end or a stepped 12db per octave hi pass filter that had half a dozen positions and started as high as 400Hz [this is all from memory... I haven't seen one of these damn things in well over 10 years].

I actually owned the console for a while. Jimmy Miller was actually at my house when it showed up. There I was all proud of my latest purchase... and as we were rolling it off the truck Jimmy looked at me and said "that's my desk!!". I smiled and said "yes it is". He scowled and said "that thing was a piece of shit in 1968, what the hell would you want with it now?".

The desk ran on negative 24volt Germanium transistors and was quite noisey. Jimmy was right, the desk was a pig... and my options were to restore it to it's original glory or break it up and sell it for the bits. Part of the frame is holding up the pile of fire wood behind my house so I guess you can figure which direction I took.

Now... with all that nostalgia bullshit put to the side... let's talk about this horseshit toob fetish especially as it applies to the cheap toob crap you can find in your local Banjo Mart for mere pennies of what it should cost. OK, the Brick is somewhat of an exception as it's low price is a direct result of it being built where you could blindfold the assemblers with dental floss... but there's more to this "cheapassed tubemania" than using Chinese factories.

First... you guys need to understand that the people building "tube" stuff back in the day were going for the highest possible fidelity attainable... they were going for the lowest distortion possible, they were trying to get the stuff to sound "neutral". They were not going for the "toob" sound, they were trying to get away from the toob sound.

Now one of the nice things about tube circuits is that if they're designed well they'll have headroom for days [things that the cheapassed shit with glowy things inside... even "the Brick" doesn't have]. You're into D.W. Fearn and Thermionic Culture and Pendulum Audio and even Manley Labs before you're talking about real tube equipment... that TL Audio bullshit doesn't make the grade.

One of the other things that you really have to understand about tube equipment is that the majority of "the sound" was created by the 'phase shift' as well as the 'ringing and overshoot' of the transformers involved in the circuits. It wasn't necessarily the tubes [though they did add some musically pleasing distortions and a little natural tube compression when driven... but I'm not writing 15,000 words on the subject so let's just leave it at most of "the sound" you're hearing is transformers... not the tubes].

Desks like the Olympic desk were also chock full of pretty cool transformers [which they haven't gotten close to recreating in the current "Helios reissue" crap]... as was Neve stuff from that era, and Raindirk stuff from that era, and MCI stuff from that era, and API stuff from that era, and Sphere, and even Soundcraft [who at one time made a pretty outstanding sounding console called the Series One which is about the last desk they built that was actually worth a flying fuck from a sonic perspective].

Yes, the Stones could afford whatever they wanted from a technical perspective... which is why they had state of the art stuff like this custom Olympic desk [which just happened to be attached to one of the coolest sounding rooms in London that just happened to be in Olympic Studios]... and 3M M-56 16 track machines [also transistor machines... but 'class A/discrete' and also full of (gasp) really good sounding transformers].

Look Rico... I know it looks like I'm ragging on you a bit... probably because I am, but really I'm ragging more on the bullshit half truths and horseshit myths that incompetent know nothing jag offs who write for jag off magazines because they can't get a real gig or worse work as a floor mook in the local Banjo Mart so they can use their employee discount to buy themselves some of that there cool assed toob gear so they can sound just like that Lenny Kravitz fellow.

Dude... don't believe the bullshit... believe your ears. Learn basic electronic theory, learn music theory, learn about rhythm and harmony... learn about harmonic structure and phase shift and shit like that and all of a sudden you'll find yourself making way better recordings than if you listen to some fucking moron who can spew dumbass hype about some cockamamie half truths he learned from someone only slightly less dumb than him.

Best of luck with all you do... and please pay the morons no mind. Listen for yourself and the world will really open itself up to you in ways you never imagined.

Peace.

That may have been the best post I've ever read anywhere!!!

Great name btw

 

[fraserhutch]

Cram your head full of music theory if that's what you want... but it doesn't mean you can write a good song.

Who ever said it did? You still need the talent. BUT!!!!! A good songwriter should have the tools.

Everyone knows the guy at the guitar shop who can play every Zeppelin/beatles/VH/Hendrix/whatever song but is working at a guitar shop because he's a shitty songwriter.

Being a musician does not imply being a songwriter. Who the hell ever said it did either?

They are 2 different things.

Yes you need music theory in a broad sense but no you do not NEED to know exactly what the chord you are playing is called as long as you know what to do to get the sound you want. A good example is "Everlong" by the Foo Fighters. Dave Grohl has said that when he wrote it he had no idea what the chords were, just that they sounded right. Bust on the Foo Fighters all you want but he's had a hell of alot more success in this business than you. That was my point.

The more tools you have, the better you will be at your skill.

The fact that someone does not know the exact name of a chord does not go to say that he doesn't necessarily when and where to use it.

I'm also guessing that you're the type of dick that would assert with utmost certainty after reading one post that I wrote that you were so much supperior to me. Not to mention that I must be an idiot.

I'm getting there.

All seriousness aside, I said I believed what you wrote was bullshit. IU still believe it.

You are confusing issues everywhere.

A songwriter is a musician. A musician isn't necessarily a sonwriter.

One can easily be a craftsman and not an artist. I belive that the converse is not true.

As far as the difficult to play stuff go's I stick by it. just because what you are playing is technically challenging as a musician doesn't mean it's good. I HATE virtouso guitar bullshit. Who cares if you can play umpteen notes in half a second it sounds like ass.

Who ever said it sounded good?

Being literate musically has nothing to do with how many notes you cram into a bar, or how fast you play something.

Having more tools in your toolbox will make you a better musician than you are without those tools.

 

[mrT]

Fine, if you have absolutely no interest in writing music and are only in it to play what you're told knowing as much theory as possible will get you places faster. I guess I have a rock/rap/original music mind set. Everything I deal with is original performances so that's what I'm thinking about. I guess I should have specified.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Walking the walk and talking the talk are definitely two different things.

However, if for nothing else, one should know enough to be able to communicate in a common and accurate language. Not even knowing what the chord you're playing is called is downright irresponsible if you're the musician. The Foos may not know the names of the chords, but I can guarantee you that they drove their engineers to drinking because of that. Not knowing the chords means not even being able to survive as a jam night musician. If you have no idea wht to do when the band leader calls out the chord changes to a song you haven't played before, you're completely useless on that stage.

Proof that commercial success does not equate to talent when someone like the Foos couldn't last on an open mic stage.

One need not know the intricacies of music theory and physics, though it would certainly be nice. But one should be able to communicate to others in music terms what they are up to, otherwise studio time is just burning away. "Play that with the 'bear claw chord' instead of the 'boy scout chord'" just won't cut it.

G.

 

[mrT]

Walking the walk and talking the talk are definitely two different things.

However, if for nothing else, one should know enough to be able to communicate in a common and accurate language. Not even knowing what the chord you're playing is called is downright irresponsible if you're the musician. The Foos may not know the names of the chords, but I can guarantee you that they drove their engineers to drinking because of that. Not knowing the chords means not even being able to survive as a jam night musician. If you have no idea wht to do when the band leader calls out the chord changes to a song you haven't played before, you're completely useless on that stage.

Proof that commercial success does not equate to talent when someone like the Foos couldn't last on an open mic stage.

One need not know the intricacies of music theory and physics, though it would certainly be nice. But one should be able to communicate to others in music terms what they are up to, otherwise studio time is just burning away. "Play that with the 'bear claw chord' instead of the 'boy scout chord'" just won't cut it.

G.

Maybe not everyone cares if they can keep up on jam night. While jamming is cool to be certain, it's not everyones bag. Just because you can't jam doesn't mean you can't make good albums. That's border line music snobbery. "If you can't play like my type of music your music sucks."

Nobody has proven to me that if I get a musician to record that doesn't know two shits about musical theory but can write amazing songs that it won't still be good music.

btw. the Foos recorded alot of their albums in Dave Grohl's basement... Home recording indeed. Let's keep it cool too guys, it's all just friendly discussion anyway. don't get too bent out of shape.

 

[whjr15]

Nobody has proven to me that if I get a musician to record that doesn't know two shits about musical theory but can write amazing songs that it won't still be good music.

AMEN once more!!!!!!! youre on a roll in my book lol

 

[mshilarious]

Art and music are the same thing for different senses to me. It's all about the emotion you're looking to create. If how you record gets the sound that fits don't worry about what people say about the gear that you did it with.

Yes, so why are you in school?

 

[mrT]

Yes, so why are you in school?

Because I'd never get a job elsewise. I really hate school, that's a whole different tangent though.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

That's border line music snobbery. "If you can't play like my type of music your music sucks."

Nobody has proven to me that if I get a musician to record that doesn't know two shits about musical theory but can write amazing songs that it won't still be good music.

If anybody is getting bent out of shape, you are when you say that. I never said anything even CLOSE to that, nor was I attacking you in a snobbish way. Some of my favorite musicians are Muddy Waters, Lonnie Brooks, Robert Johnson and the like, all of whom knew nothing about music theory whatsoever. That's not my point.

My point is that it is a both a plus and a sign of professional discipline and respect to be able to at least communicate to fellow musicians and engineers what's going on. If you don't know it, OK. But what's so bad about taking just a little bit of time to learn the basic language at least?

OK so you operate in a type of musicianship where you are in an essential vacuum. You are a solo performer and you record yourself. That's great, nothing wrong with that. But what happens when you come across an interview by - or, if you're really lucky, get to meet - one of your idols and you want to learn a few things from him. If you have no idea what he is talking about, you'll miss the golden opportunity.

I'm sorry if you have been disrespected in the past by those who wrongly felt themselves your superior, and that has left a huge chip on your shoulder. Now is the time to let it go and not pre-judge the rest of us in the same way.

G.

 

[Zed10R]

This shit is great. I love it! There really is a distintion between artist and craftsman. I have always believed that a musician has to be a craftsmas too, but a craftsman is not an artist.

Or, execution of a learned skill is not creativity....or talent.

In any kind of art you have to be careful what you let people teach you. It is best to learn how to think for yourself. There is never any right or wrong way to do anything, and most folks that get art school educations come out conditioned to produce a certain product. They apply a learned skill and they are convinced it is art. I say it is not. Art comes from within a person. You either have it or don't. You cannot "learn" to be creative, weather is't music or paint. Art comes out of you almost as if it is it's own entity with it's own will. No amount of school can EVER teach you that. But at the same time, knowing different ways to express that same drive is a good thing.......

 

[mrT]

Look, I have nothing against knowing music theory. And for the record I'm not a solo performer. I record mainly rap but also do rock/indie stuff too. All I want to get across is that if you don't know the theory don't get your head down and think that it is an essential part of making good music. It helps, certainly but it's not essential.

and Glen man, I mean you no harm. That's just how I read it. Personanlly I'm a John Lee Hooker man. And I didn't think that YOU were being unreasonable.

The craftsman reference is a good one. I think the people that disagree with me are more on the studio musician / more theroycentric parts of music. But music is a pretty broad field and to say that theory is a nessecity for all of it just isn't right. I can vouche that I've never been drawn into a deep round table theory discussion with a bunch of rappers (round table something else but no music theory involved ). Either way I think people should really try to keep comments somewhat positive. Constructive criticism

 

[Farview]

There is never any right or wrong way to do anything.

I agree with most of your post, however, this statement isn't really true. As an artist, you can do what ever you want, but as soon as the artist desides what he wants the outcome to be, he can only acheive it by using the methods that will have the desired result.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I agree with most of your post, however, this statement isn't really true. As an artist, you can do what ever you want, but as soon as the artist desides what he wants the outcome to be, he can only acheive it by using the methods that will have the desired result.

Oh, now THAT is good.

G.

 

[Zed10R]

I agree with most of your post, however, this statement isn't really true. As an artist, you can do what ever you want, but as soon as the artist desides what he wants the outcome to be, he can only acheive it by using the methods that will have the desired result.

Well DUUUHHH!! just pokin fun....

My point was not quite communicated well enough I think.

Everyone has to learn how to get a guitar to make sound. You can just whack at it any old way you want to, sure, but it is best if you pluck strings with one hand *somehow* and fret strings wth the other *somehow*. Yes, those are rules that should be followed, but I am not talking about those rules. I am talking about rules like:

A great song HAS to be verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-chorus

or

You can't get a good sound with the gain cranked up like that

or

tuning your guitar lower that A = 440 will just turn your sound into mud

or

screamers aren't really vocalists...anyone can scream....

or any number of things I just don't have time to write down at the moment. Yes, you have to use certain means to get a certain end. But once you know what end you want, the means to get there becomes way less strict and rigid than a lot of people think.

 

[xloon]

.

Great thread.
We just got a little barely used 4-channel tape Porta Studio, very good headphones and decent mics. Maybe naivety is the best. We sound great.....

Getting a feel on the basics before we invest in real equipment. Hard to seperate the marketing hype from the what we want and stuff like this is top shelf. Looking forward to the info here.

While a myth may be "you need another hit", a hit or to to loosen up aint bad.

 

[mrT]

a hit or to to loosen up aint bad.

I second that. It's an integral part of most of my favorite music. haha...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I find that giving a hit or three to the listeners makes the music sound even better than that!

G.

 

[fraserhutch]

Fine, if you have absolutely no interest in writing music and are only in it to play what you're told knowing as much theory as possible will get you places faster. I guess I have a rock/rap/original music mind set. Everything I deal with is original performances so that's what I'm thinking about. I guess I should have specified.

Actually, this is the height of snobbery iteself - essentially stating that musicians who do not compose are not musicians.

FWIW, I, and a great deal of others, are both composers AND studio musicians. I used to be a "studio musician", and have worked with many who are magnificent musicians but who do not feel the need to compose.

The fact that your average hip/hop rap artist isn't a studio musician speaks more about their musicial skills (note SKILLS not talent).

You do not make a living as a studio musician with creativity and musicality. In fact, one of the hardest things I find I have had to do as a musician is to make other people's crappy music sound good.

And to top that off, many of the world's greatest composers made their living as studio musicians.

 

[Farview]

a hit or to to loosen up aint bad.

Until it rots your brain to the point that you don't know the difference between to and two. It's too bad you have gotten to the point where you can no longer tell the difference between to and two.