More beneficial Mic or Premap question please help.....

  • Thread starter Thread starter snsguy
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That said, I still disagree with Darrin. There are, as he says, many recordings over the years, that would support his argument, and just as many that are exceptions to it. I do see this pattern, though. I would almost always rather record a singer that sucks with a dynamic than a condenser. I'm not seeing a difference in vocal range, though. Plenty of altos and baritones use condensers (Linda Rondstadt) and plenty of tenors use dynamics (Elton John), and just as many people that have access to them use ribbons, a distaff flavor of dynamic. Any pattern in what mic is used for a given type of voice is illusion.-Richie

Well the Linda Ronstadt that sang "Youre no Good" and the one that sang with the Nielson Riddle Orchestra are two seperate animals...Id put a condencer in front of her because she can pull it off...but she had the same range as Pat Benatar...and those voices you dont want to hide behind a dynamic.

Now Minnie Ripperton and Maraih Carrey you would allways want a LDC in front of...that being said you get to have an ear for this after a while.
 
What's a head voice? Wouldn't a good LDC be more clear and detailed than any dynamic...except perhaps the md441? Whether that flatters or not would depend upon the singer, I suppose. Maybe with some singers, you want to cover up some of the details. I should probably include myself in that category.:D
My self included...Im a mezzoforte type of guy who likes to belt out a tune and loud...I have to really modify that if Im working with a LDC...but the SM7 is my go to for my vocals.
 
Well the Linda Ronstadt that sang "Youre no Good" and the one that sang with the Nielson Riddle Orchestra are two seperate animals...Id put a condencer in front of her because she can pull it off...but she had the same range as Pat Benatar...and those voices you dont want to hide behind a dynamic.

Now Minnie Ripperton and Maraih Carrey you would allways want a LDC in front of...that being said you get to have an ear for this after a while.

I agree with all of that-You have to use your ears. And even the same singer may need different mics, depending on the time, and the material. And how about The Stone Ponies? the defense rests.-Richie
 
I agree with all of that-You have to use your ears. And even the same singer may need different mics, depending on the time, and the material. And how about The Stone Ponies? the defense rests.-Richie

I agree with that also. I just don't think I'll have the money to get several different mics. I need one good one for now specifically for my voice and then over time I'll start add seperate pres and more mics so I have a variety. Having variety is always a good thing. I just want to get as much right the first time with the audio interface and even the mic pres when i start buying those. I'm llooking for specific sounds and that will help.

SNSGUY
 
After looking into your right I can't bypass the pres on the Motu 8pre. So I'm having to go a different route. The sperate mic preamps are now out of the question for the time being. I am selling my Motu 8pre and using the money to get a new audio interface converter and then I will getting a new mic to go with it. I need a mic that fits my voice. That is extremely important to me I really seriously looking at the AKG C 414 B-XL II and the Sure KSM44. If I'm able to try more out I will. Has anyone listened to the clip I provided and have any ideas of which mic they think I should try? You can listen to it here http://www.someonenamedsimon.com/vocaltest.html I would really appreciate any mic suggestions. For a new audio interface I'm looking at the Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 and the RME Fireface 800. If I go with the RME that will obviously change the price point for the mic. I was also looking at the Mackie Onyx 400f but most places have stopped carrying it. So now I guess I'm kind of starting fro scratch again. I'm learning a lot and I want to make sure I get stuff that will last me a long time and I'll be able to use with other components and just keep building up instead of having to buy something new all over again.

SNSGUY

Laptop or Desktop?
PC or MAC?

My next desktop interface will likely be an Echo Layla 3G. Not the end of the line, but a step up from my Delta 44. If you are going to opt for the external preamp, you could get by with an interface without preamps. Like the Delta 44/66 series.

I use a Korg MR-1000 for anything remote. Portable, durable, respectable battery life, and excellent converters. The on board preamps aren't too shabby either. Although I'm inclined to get a Sonosax SX-M2 to compliment it eventually. It doesn't multitrack, so limited. But you can pipe the signal out of it to another soundcard that does.

Metric Halo ULN-8 seems to be a common mention. Although it may be mac centric. And then I found the price tag, ouch! RME's seem well respected. I'm not to sure about linux drivers on them though. I think gearwire.com uses the saffire (26?) for their samples. It was my motivation for getting an AT4033a. Although it didn't sound anything close to their sample on my Mobile Pre that I was using at the time.

I've been lusting over a KSM44 for a while. But I want a stereo pair. I'm also wanting sE Titans. But for what I normally record I don't "need" them. It really depends on the traits you're looking for. Transparent, or Flattering?
 
I hate to reccomend something I dont have yet...but for arround $500 two SP CS5 mics can be had...and they look pretty good.
 
Laptop or Desktop?
PC or MAC?

My next desktop interface will likely be an Echo Layla 3G. Not the end of the line, but a step up from my Delta 44. If you are going to opt for the external preamp, you could get by with an interface without preamps. Like the Delta 44/66 series.

I use a Korg MR-1000 for anything remote. Portable, durable, respectable battery life, and excellent converters. The on board preamps aren't too shabby either. Although I'm inclined to get a Sonosax SX-M2 to compliment it eventually. It doesn't multitrack, so limited. But you can pipe the signal out of it to another soundcard that does.

Metric Halo ULN-8 seems to be a common mention. Although it may be mac centric. And then I found the price tag, ouch! RME's seem well respected. I'm not to sure about linux drivers on them though. I think gearwire.com uses the saffire (26?) for their samples. It was my motivation for getting an AT4033a. Although it didn't sound anything close to their sample on my Mobile Pre that I was using at the time.

I've been lusting over a KSM44 for a while. But I want a stereo pair. I'm also wanting sE Titans. But for what I normally record I don't "need" them. It really depends on the traits you're looking for. Transparent, or Flattering?

I use a PC Windows XP. Do you mean clean when you say transparent and colored when you say flattering? I think I really like the vintage sounding mic. something that is clear but smooth. Some that has it's own texture and seperates itself from the rest. I know that a lot of that has to with a pre amp so I'm just looking now for the perfect vintage sounding mic that just has it's own characteristics. Not sure if the KSM 44 is really what I'm looking for after I've had some time to think about it. Hope that helps.

SNSGUY
 
Snsguy- "Transparent" and "colored" are opposites. These are some of the most confusing terms thrown around about what mics do, especially when we are referring to vocals. There are 2 major problems with vocals and mics. The first one is that it is so-personal. If I tell you your guitar sounds thin and weak, you can blame the strings, or Takamine, or whoever. If I tell you the same thing about your voice, you tend to get mad or depressed. Being a vocalist is like being a guitar player, except that you go to God's guitar store, and he gives you the only one you are ever going to own, You can take care of it, and learn how to play it, but you can't trade it in for an upgrade. Some of us get the vintage Martin, others the Rogue. I got an Ovation with a straight neck, and learned how to play it as best I could.

The second problem is that our entire lives, we listen to our voice through this bag of meat and water we call our head. Then, when we listen to an honest recording of it, we are horrified, then spend years trying to find the mic and pre that will make it sound on the recording the way we hear it, which it never will. A huge part of being a recording vocalist is coming to grips with that.

That said, "transparent" mics tend toward the flatter end of the EQ continuum. The frequency response of mics is never ruler flat, but transparent mics are closer to that end of the spectrum. The better the sound of your voice is, the better that works. Now maybe Charlotte Church or Pavarotti could sing into a DPA reference mic and sound good, but for most of us, that would be a pretty scary experience. "Colored" mics, on the other hand, introduce hopefully subtle distortion, which tends to gloss over annoying detail that we don't want to hear, like airbrushing a centerfold, so we don't see her cellulite. When we like that effect, we call it "flattering", or "warm". When we don't like it, we call it "muddy". It isn't black and white, it is a continuum. All mics produce some distortion of the signal, and just like great preamps, we often pay the big bucks to make things sound better than they are, rather than reporting the truth. Distortion is a feature of the greatest vocal mics in the world, as well as some of the worst ones. It's just a matter of what kind of distortion it is.

Additionally, mics tend to function on a spectrum of "dark", "bright", and "neutral", depending on whether they tend to augment or attenuate upper or lower frequency bands.
Vocal mics tend to augment midrange frequencies, the primary vocal frequencies, to make the words more intelligible, and help the vocals cut through a dense mix. When we don't like that, and think it is excessive, we call it "hyped". When we want more, we call it "scooped".

Because these words are thrown around so commonly, they are often used differently by different people, so by defining my terms, it at least allows you to have some idea of what I am talking about. The KSM44, for instance, I would call a fairly transparent mic with a gentle midrange boost. That means it's great for recording a good acoustic guitar, or a very good vocalist who has good diction. Put it in front of Faith Hill, and it will probably rock. Put it in front of Bob Dylan, and I expect a recording disaster.

When you talk about "vintage" sound, that usually means the sound of a tube mic or a ribbon mic plugged into an old fashioned tube-based preamp. They didn't do that in the old days because they wanted a certain sound, they did it because those were the only mics and preamps they had. So in modern times, they stuck tubes into the wrong place in the signal chain of a cheap solid state preamp, and told you you'd get that "vintage" sound. They lied. Meanwhile, in the 60's going forward, solid state preamps were designed that introduced similar flattering distortion, but they still weren't cheap, because flattering color still was a function of good mics and preamps with good components, whether they were tube based or not.

If you and your voice really want that "vintage" sound, my first guess would be to look at tube based condensers, and eventually to plug it into a very good preamp with some color, whether tube based or not. For a brighter tube mic, I like Rode NTK or K2. For a dark tube mic, I like AKG Solid Tube. For a more neutral tube mic, I like Audio-Technica AT4060 or Lawson L47, which is a pretty good Neumann U47 clone. For good preamps with some color, I like Great River, Neve, Pendulum, and Avalon. The Pendulum is tube based, the Great River and Neve are solid state, and Avalon makes both (737-tube U5/AD2022-solid state)

Everyone has preferences, because every vocalist has different needs. Because something makes them sound good, they think it is good, and it is- for them. I think "good" is something that is well made, consistent, and respected, so you know what you are getting, it doesn't usually break, it is supported by the manufacturer when it does, and it's easier to sell it if it doesn't work out for you.

I would say- go listen to an NTK, a Solid Tube, and an AT4060, and I bet one of them will give you the sound you want. But- don't believe headphones- they lie. Listen to a recording through any really good preamp. That will get you as close as you can get at an audition to hearing what the mic really does for you. Best of luck.-Richie
 
I use a PC Windows XP. Do you mean clean when you say transparent and colored when you say flattering? I think I really like the vintage sounding mic. something that is clear but smooth. Some that has it's own texture and seperates itself from the rest. I know that a lot of that has to with a pre amp so I'm just looking now for the perfect vintage sounding mic that just has it's own characteristics. Not sure if the KSM 44 is really what I'm looking for after I've had some time to think about it. Hope that helps.

SNSGUY

Perhaps if we were talking preamps I would. If we were talking mics, I'd say transparent is a what you hear is what you get mic. Flattering is anything but that.

From your description of the desired sound, it almost sounds like you're wanting a ribbon microphone. Fathead II?

I tend more towards transparent gear. As clean and truthful as possible. To combine a colored mic with a colored preamp, and the results are basically UNKNOWN until you actually put the two elements together. Unfortunately a lot of the sub $500 preamps are colored in some way. Where the mics may only be colored when used in combination with said preamps.
 
After doing a lot of research I realized I can't use the 8pre with a preamp because there is no way to bypass the preamps. So I sold the 8PRE and purchased the RME Fireface 800 so I have the ability to get a premamp when I can afford one and bought the Mojave MA 200 for my vocals. It will be here on Wednesday. y only regret is not being able to try many mics before hand but there were only a few that I was interested in, again after all the research and help from this forum and others, but I was able to narrow it way down and the MA 200 was my top pic. Thanks for everyones help I really appreciate it and my next purchase will be a preamp which I'm still all for the API Luncchbox and either Great River, Shadow Hills, or the LaChapelle. Thanks again.

SNSGUY
 
May it work out for you. A tube mic by Dave Royer is not likely to suck. If it fits your voice, you're in like Flynn.-Richie
 
May it work out for you. A tube mic by Dave Royer is not likely to suck. If it fits your voice, you're in like Flynn.-Richie

Yup. I've used the Mojave a couple of times. Works great on acoustic guitar, drum overheads, and most voices.
 
After doing a lot of research I realized I can't use the 8pre with a preamp because there is no way to bypass the preamps. So I sold the 8PRE and purchased the RME Fireface 800 so I have the ability to get a premamp when I can afford one and bought the Mojave MA 200 for my vocals. It will be here on Wednesday. y only regret is not being able to try many mics before hand but there were only a few that I was interested in, again after all the research and help from this forum and others, but I was able to narrow it way down and the MA 200 was my top pic. Thanks for everyones help I really appreciate it and my next purchase will be a preamp which I'm still all for the API Luncchbox and either Great River, Shadow Hills, or the LaChapelle. Thanks again.

SNSGUY

Now you are stuck having to buy a preamp...the line 6 UX8 has built in pre's and they have 6 differnt models...of API...Neve...Avalon...old RCA...etc...and has A/D converters that the Apogee stuff has...and it is an exellent interface.

Why didnt you look into that?
 
Now you are stuck having to buy a preamp...the line 6 UX8 has built in pre's and they have 6 differnt models...of API...Neve...Avalon...old RCA...etc...and has A/D converters that the Apogee stuff has...and it is an exellent interface.

Why didnt you look into that?

I actually didn't even see that as an option and everything I read was raving how fantastic the RME Fireface is. I also want to get something that I can always keep in my rack and I wanted the best if I was going to be spending the money on it. Ya I'll have to get a preamp eventually to have that certain sound but honestly I'd rather have the real thing then something that is emulated. I've looked at the emulated interfaces and preamps and they look like they would be cool. But not for my needs as of right now. I'm happy with my decision and the help from others to get to that decision. And I have some really cool new gear!!!

SNSGUY
 
FWIW, the MOTU 828 also has line-level inputs and costs a boatload less than the FireFace....
 
Isnt that just another interface you need a set of 8 pres to use?...to get the sound with it you would still have to buy a lunchbox and 8 API pre's...8 Neve pre's...and well Avalons dont come in a lunchbox.

Then you have to add that interface with the same A/D converters as the Apogee...when you are done you should have spent in the tens of thousands.

So why pray tell is that RME the best option...sure it is good at what it does...but most one trick ponies are...and in the end that is what you got.
 
Ya I'll have to get a preamp eventually to have that certain sound but honestly I'd rather have the real thing then something that is emulated. SNSGUY

The real thing will run you...well I did see on Craigs list Trident modules at $400 each...but Neve and API are way more expensive...and with the real ones being analog...they wont match 100%...like the models do...and the models are noisless as well...so the models are an improvement on the real thing.

And emulation has come leaps and bounds since the 2001 revolution with the pod...people who didnt like emulation back then have to consider that things have improved with computers and this technology.
 
FWIW, the MOTU 828 also has line-level inputs and costs a boatload less than the FireFace....

Had a MOTU 8Pre never really impressed by MOTU's audion conversion or their preamps. So I wasn't interested in that model. Just my preference though. But if I am unhappy with the RME in any way it will be sent right back. But from all the research I have done I don't think I will be disappointed. I also have no need for 8 XLR ins right now. When I do I will be daisy chaining and adding onto the RME. Thanks for letting me know though.

SNSGUY
 
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Isnt that just another interface you need a set of 8 pres to use?...to get the sound with it you would still have to buy a lunchbox and 8 API pre's...8 Neve pre's...and well Avalons dont come in a lunchbox.

Then you have to add that interface with the same A/D converters as the Apogee...when you are done you should have spent in the tens of thousands.

So why pray tell is that RME the best option...sure it is good at what it does...but most one trick ponies are...and in the end that is what you got.

I was looking for what I wanted and I found it. It has pres in it that are known for being better than the 8pre which I had. I've done a lot of research and a lot of users of the RME that have owned MOTU also have agreed. But again that is my preference and opinion. It also has a seperate input which will allow me to use seperate pres which the 8pre did not. You could not bypass the pres in that unit. So therefore, no it's not the same thing. It is best for MY needs.

SNSGUY
 
The real thing will run you...well I did see on Craigs list Trident modules at $400 each...but Neve and API are way more expensive...and with the real ones being analog...they wont match 100%...like the models do...and the models are noisless as well...so the models are an improvement on the real thing.

And emulation has come leaps and bounds since the 2001 revolution with the pod...people who didnt like emulation back then have to consider that things have improved with computers and this technology.

Again, I am willing to spend the money to get what I want which is what I like and prefer. I prefer the analog sound to the digital in the items that I've been looking at. I do not disagree with you that the technology is there it's just not what I want to use at least not right now. And Digital emulation can cost you to. Look at the Focusrite Liquid Preamp. That will run you $3700. I can get an Api Lunchbox and 4 preamps for that price and they all can be different and analog whcih is what I prefer and if I get sick of them at any point I can sell it and buy another one or two or six for that matter. But I do respect yours and others opinions on gear and that's why I came here.

SNSGUY
 
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