Monitors vs. headphones

[reshp1]

I'm a poor student. Pay me the treated room and I'll mix with monitors.

You were talking about mixing on $500 dollar headphones in the other thread, you can't be that poor. A couple panels of acoustical foam will run you under 100.

But Headphones don't leak that much of noise when roomates are sleeping nearby. I always mix at night.

Like I said, a comprimise. Doesn't mean that's the best way, or even an exceptable way if the limitation were removed.

Thank you. Now please just tell me where am I wrong? If I choose to drive my nails with my boots, it's my thing, that doesn't mean I'm full of shit for doing it my own way. All I'm trying to expose on this board is the evercoming old sayings that pollute this BBS...things like "You can't mix on headphones...". Of course you can. It's up to you to make sure it translates well. This is why I play it on at least 4 different systems in 4 different environments and then I make the changes to the mix so that it's translatable.

No one is saying YOU can't do it. Just don't go spouting off to newbies about how Bruce, Harvey, and all the other experienced AE members here on the board don't know their shit, and that you are right, because you aren't.

Doing so with monitors is probably "a little" less trouble, but MUCH MORE NOISE at night too.

As for telling you where you are wrong, what can I say that others haven't already in some 4 other threads on the subject.

 

[TheDewd]

As for telling you where you are wrong, what can I say that others haven't already in some 4 other threads on the subject.

LOL! I'm not THAT poor, but to rival the sound quality of my Sennheiser headphones, I'd have to shell out at least $3000 for monitors + couple $100 for isolation. Do the simple math..$3100 vs $500...do you get it ? Headphones sound as flat and as accurate as speakers costing as much as 6 to 10 times more. Thus headphones are a low-cost solution.

You seem to be going "with the pack" with your emphasis on what Bruce and Harvey and other guys think. These guys prefer to mix on speakers, it's THEIR business. They DON'T have to IMPOSE their way to beginners like they do.

You don't seem to be open minded and you certainly seem to be a follower that can only approve what his "so-called gurus" say. This is pityful. Why not make an idea for yourself?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Headphones sound as flat and as accurate as speakers

...yet another example of where you're flat-out wrong....

You seem to be going "with the pack" with your emphasis on what Bruce and Harvey and other guys think. These guys prefer to mix on speakers, it's THEIR business. They DON'T have to IMPOSE their way to beginners like they do.

The pros give advice to people here to help novices and amateurs get the best results -- and headphone mixing is simply not a good practice in terms of getting good results. Period. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it is not a good practice and it makes audio engineering for novices that much more diifficult. Period.

 

[K-dub]

It is a personal comfort thing, really, some folks are fine w/ it, some prefer other more tried and true alternatives.

I'm fairly comfortable with it in certain situations: for example, this was a headphone mix, finished late at night. It's not perfect, but it's a reasonable mix:

Dangling

I've worked w/ the same phones for YEARS and I understand what things should sound like through them. To be sure, this was also a fairly simple piano/voice arrangement, so the complexity of the mix wasn't demanding.

It's really all about trusting what you're hearing, and how that relates to what your mixing. It's not what equipment your using...though good equipment (tools) make the job easier (as noted many time above). The nail and the shoe illustration was apt...although perhaps a little extreme to drive (pardon the pun) the point.

Now, would I release this w/o backchecking other playback systems? Absolutely not. But I'd do the same backchecking if I used monitors to mix too.

Six of one, half dozen of the other - if you can make it work, it works for you.

Best,

Kev.

 

[reshp1]

LOL! I'm not THAT poor, but to rival the sound quality of my Sennheiser headphones, I'd have to shell out at least $3000 for monitors + couple $100 for isolation. Do the simple math..$3100 vs $500...do you get it ? Headphones sound as flat and as accurate as speakers costing as much as 6 to 10 times more. Thus headphones are a low-cost solution.

Yet again your ignorance shows through. "Isolation" has nothing to do with the sound you hear from your monitors, unless you happen to be outside the room the speakers are in. You are looking for absorbtion to keep sound from the left speaker from bouncing off the wall and going into you right ear.


You seem to be going "with the pack" with your emphasis on what Bruce and Harvey and other guys think. These guys prefer to mix on speakers, it's THEIR business. They DON'T have to IMPOSE their way to beginners like they do.
I joined this place in 2003, less than 2 years ago. I've been recording and mixing for going on 10 years now.. YOU do the math. I learned not to use headphones on my own, iteration after iteration of correcting mixes that sounded way off on everything but the headphones I mixed on. Harvey and Bruce aren't "imposing" their way on beginners. They are trying to save them the trouble of finding out the hard way after spending hundreds on "mixing headphones" and still turning out shitty mixes. It would have saved me a ton of remixes

You don't seem to be open minded and you certainly seem to be a follower that can only approve what his "so-called gurus" say. This is pityful. Why not make an idea for yourself?

Ummm.. okay you got me. I wholeheartedly agree with what these guys have to say only because I'm am a weak and stupid sheep. Either that... or maybe it's because (drumroll please....) THEY'RE RIGHT!
Btw, google "Harvey Gerst." I think you can safely drop the "so-called" part you arrogant little shit

BTW, I'm leaving for Vegas tomorrow morning so this is my last post in this stupid argument. Don't go off posting like you won it because I didn't respond

 

[Harvey Gerst]

...yet another example of where you're flat-out wrong....

The pros give advice to people here to help novices and amateurs get the best results -- and headphone mixing is simply not a good practice in terms of getting good results. Period. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it is not a good practice and it makes audio engineering for novices that much more diifficult. Period.

Bruce, with the advent of mp3's, ipods, and portable CD players, we may hafta rethink our position on mixing thru headphones. If headphones are gonna be the predominent listening evironment, that may be a viable mixing method these days.

I now mix about 75% speakers and 25% headphones, but I'm paying more and more attention to making sure the mixes also sound exciting in headphones.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

...yet another example of where you're flat-out wrong....

The pros give advice to people here to help novices and amateurs get the best results -- and headphone mixing is simply not a good practice in terms of getting good results. Period. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it is not a good practice and it makes audio engineering for novices that much more diifficult. Period.

Bruce, with the advent of mp3's, ipods, and portable CD players, we may hafta rethink our position on mixing thru headphones. If headphones are gonna be the predominent listening evironment, that may be a viable mixing method these days.

I now mix about 75% speakers and 25% headphones, but I'm paying more and more attention to making sure the mixes also sound exciting in headphones.


...and to rshp1:

Good luck on your trip to Vegas.

 

[enferno]

i just love how blue bear always leaves me negative rep . . . especially when i was asking a genuine question. if i can't ask it here without being buttfucked by blue bear, when can i ask it? in my opinion, he never seems to give any truely good advice, he jsut repeats the same things over and over. so fucking what if you have a pro studio, your so called 'tips' and 'advice' is not applyable to us true homerecorders, you're not considering out situations that we don't have all this gear and money, and that we are trying to work around these obsticles. it's extremely frustrating when that is all he does, and then give people negative reputation when they can't use his 'earls of wisdom'. not everyone is at the same level as you, so stop being an arrogant jackass.

thanks for ruining another perfectly good thread.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

i just love how blue bear always leaves me negative rep . . . especially when i was asking a genuine question. if i can't ask it here without being buttfucked by blue bear, when can i ask it? in my opinion, he never seems to give any truely good advice, he jsut repeats the same things over and over. so fucking what if you have a pro studio, your so called 'tips' and 'advice' is not applyable to us true homerecorders, you're not considering out situations that we don't have all this gear and money, and that we are trying to work around these obsticles. it's extremely frustrating when that is all he does, and then give people negative reputation when they can't use his 'earls of wisdom'. not everyone is at the same level as you, so stop being an arrogant jackass.

thanks for ruining another perfectly good thread.

*yawn*

 

[SonicAlbert]

Bruce, with the advent of mp3's, ipods, and portable CD players, we may hafta rethink our position on mixing thru headphones. If headphones are gonna be the predominent listening evironment, that may be a viable mixing method these days.

I now mix about 75% speakers and 25% headphones, but I'm paying more and more attention to making sure the mixes also sound exciting in headphones.

Harvey, that's a very interesting point. In my experience, which is far less than yours, I feel that when the mix has been done *primarily* via monitors (with headphone checks), it sounds great on headphones. In other words, 25% seems pretty high for time spent on headphones.

Your point is well taken though regarding iPod's, etc. I wonder if it will ever reach the point where the primary method of listening to music will be on headphones?

 

[fraserhutch]

Your point is well taken though regarding iPod's, etc. I wonder if it will ever reach the point where the primary method of listening to music will be on headphones?

Lord, I sincerely hope not.

 

[CoolCat]

has anyone ever reversed mix, or did the mix thru an Ipod ear-bud and then check to the car,hifi,pc,monitors??

interesting subject, headphones or "ear-buds"....
the time spent listening to music has probably quadrupled due to ear-buds etc...kind of like when car stereos took over the world.

hell, i even have my pc hooked into my stereo AUX!!
but i still have my headphones and nice Hifi setup...

the future cometh..
The consumer stores are now selling pc $500 speakers!
peolple want better sonics?

i'm inventing a sub-woofer mini-Ipod unit you tie to your crotch.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Bruce, with the advent of mp3's, ipods, and portable CD players, we may hafta rethink our position on mixing thru headphones. If headphones are gonna be the predominent listening evironment, that may be a viable mixing method these days.

I'm not so sure, Harvey... after all, Walkmans have been around forever, so "personal audio" is not new at all....

As well, I've found that great-sounding mixes done on monitors translate very well on headphones!

 

[TheDewd]

Yet again your ignorance shows through. "Isolation" has nothing to do with the sound you hear from your monitors, unless you happen to be outside the room the speakers are in. You are looking for absorbtion to keep sound from the left speaker from bouncing off the wall and going into you right ear.

Okay I used the wrong word. Sorry, French is my first language and I don't get to speak English that often. I meant to say absorbtion material.

I joined this place in 2003, less than 2 years ago. I've been recording and mixing for going on 10 years now.. YOU do the math. I learned not to use headphones on my own, iteration after iteration of correcting mixes that sounded way off on everything but the headphones I mixed on. Harvey and Bruce aren't "imposing" their way on beginners. They are trying to save them the trouble of finding out the hard way after spending hundreds on "mixing headphones" and still turning out shitty mixes. It would have saved me a ton of remixes.

You have experienced headphones and it didn't give you good results. So what ? You can't assume everyone and every beginner will have the same problems you had when mixing on headphones. If you prefer monitors, that's your thing, but don't try to tell EVERYONE thay using headphones is not a good way...

Ummm.. okay you got me. I wholeheartedly agree with what these guys have to say only because I'm am a weak and stupid sheep. Either that... or maybe it's because (drumroll please....) THEY'RE RIGHT!
Btw, google "Harvey Gerst." I think you can safely drop the "so-called" part you arrogant little shit

I have nothing against Harvey Gerst and Bruce. Both guys are awesome (I'm sure). I only wish they would refrain from pointing to everyone that mixing on speakers is the way to do things because they liked it more. To each his own. I just CAN'T handle someone trying to make his personal preferences the absolute truth. Sure, mixing with monitors it great. but you can also do it on headphones.

 

[TheDewd]

...yet another example of where you're flat-out wrong....

You don't know much about headphone design and you obviously seem to think headphones are pure shit right from the beginning, without factoring in all the GREAT engineering that takes part in the design of a flat and accurate headphone.

Until you can proove me that headphone manufacturers don't aim at flatness and accuracy the same way monitor designers do, I call this argument B.S.

The pros give advice to people here to help novices and amateurs get the best results -- and headphone mixing is simply not a good practice in terms of getting good results. Period. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it is not a good practice and it makes audio engineering for novices that much more diifficult. Period.

It depends on the novice. Not all novices have the same taste and set of ears that you got. You are not a GOD, you don't hold the TRUTH...shocked?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I have nothing against Harvey Gerst and Bruce. Both guys are awesome (I'm sure). I only wish they would refrain from pointing to everyone that mixing on speakers is the way to do things because they liked it more. To each his own. I just CAN'T handle someone trying to make his personal preferences the absolute truth. Sure, mixing with monitors it great. but you can also do it on headphones.

Umm, guess what I'm doing when I'm not running our studio? I sell MoreMe headphones.

And mixing on headphones is way harder than on monitors. A lot easier to fool yourself into thinking you have a good mix that translates well.

It's not impossible, just WAY harder to do.

 

[Chris F]

Bruce, with the advent of mp3's, ipods, and portable CD players, we may hafta rethink our position on mixing thru headphones. If headphones are gonna be the predominent listening evironment, that may be a viable mixing method these days.

I now mix about 75% speakers and 25% headphones, but I'm paying more and more attention to making sure the mixes also sound exciting in headphones.

Great post, and I've learned to do the same these days. Funny enough, the true acid test for me is my Alpine/Infinity car system (middle of the road, about $800 system total). When a mix can sound good in THAT environment, then I've got something. But if the bass is too loud, it farts out, and if it's too soft, the road noise kills it. Likewise panning issues. I don't know why, but a mix that sounds good in there tends to sound good pretty much anywhere, on any other system...maybe because it just goes ahead and throws all of the bad characteristics of cheaper systems in the mix right away? When those are overcome, playing the mix on a good system sounds like heaven.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I read elsewhere about a mix engineer, I think Jon Gass, who runs a vacuum cleaner in the studio to test mixes. Similar to the car/road noise test probably. What I like about the vacuum test is that it is fast and it is in the studio. The issue with checking mixes in all these differnet environments is that it takes time, lots of time. Most situations I've been in there really isn't all that much time to be doing many multiple listening environment tests.

That's why I like multiple monitors, headphones, the "dim" button, and the "mono" button. That really covers a large area. I think I'm going to add the vacuum cleaner test next time as well.

One environment I've found *fantastic* for checking mixes is in a restaurant. If the music is at a comfortable level for the patrons to talk, you'll definitely hear if the dynamic range is too wide. The soft parts will just plain disappear under the hubbub. The overall dynamic range soft parts and if parts within the mix are too low in relation to the others. The restaurant check is great, assuming you've got a place with a friendly manager.

 

[fraserhutch]

One environment I've found *fantastic* for checking mixes is in a restaurant. If the music is at a comfortable level for the patrons to talk, you'll definitely hear if the dynamic range is too wide. The soft parts will just plain disappear under the hubbub. The overall dynamic range soft parts and if parts within the mix are too low in relation to the others. The restaurant check is great, assuming you've got a place with a friendly manager.

Hey, that's a cool idea - I never thought of that

I know of a couple of restaurants around here that are deserving of being put through that kind of torture from my mixes

 

[Mo-Kay]

Walkmans have been around forever

*warning:fun but useless info coming up*

Did you know that after they invented the walkman, Sony originally put out models that had -2- headphone outputs? Because Sony didn't want to break up relationships....

aaawwwww!