mo mono mo problems

[starbuck26]

Gents,

I gots a problem. I'm mixing my band's guitar-driven rock opus, basically a catalogue of riffs in E minor and I have one problem that is makin me crazy.

Though by the end there are like 13 different guitar tracks, for the bulk of the song there are just 2 guitar tracks, panned hard left and hard right. The track on the right has a faint bit of delay added.

In the second verse, a third guitar comes in, which is just playing single notes a couple octaves higher. That guitar sits right in the middle.

In stereo I have the levels just where I want them... the third guitar blends nicely, and sits low in the mix.

When I check it in mono, though, the volume of the main guitars drops a bit and the third guitar is too present.

I've soloed the two main guitars and checked them in mono... it doesn't sound like phase cancellation to me, but there is a slight loss in volume. Are my ears playing tricks on me?

 

[Farview]

Are the two panned tracks different performances, or the same performance delayed?

If it is the same performance, it is phase cancellation. Play it again.

 

[starbuck26]

Are the two panned tracks different performances, or the same performance delayed?

If it is the same performance, it is phase cancellation. Play it again.

Different performances, different pickups, different mics.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Gents,

Who came in????

You you might be hearing the effect of your DAW panning laws:

http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/

Depending on what your software offers in that regard, you might mitigate it a bit by picking a different panning law or by locking out the panning laws altogether.

G.

 

[starbuck26]

Who came in????

You you might be hearing the effect of your DAW panning laws:

http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/

Depending on what your software offers in that regard, you might mitigate it a bit by picking a different panning law or by locking out the panning laws altogether.

G.

Absolutely, Glen. I just checked... -3db indeed. I didn't change it, because it'd fuck my whole mix up, but at least now I know what's going on. Instead of letting the part sit in the middle I doubled it, panned it hard left-hard right and then reversed the phase of the right one. This way, if it winds up in mono the part disappears entirely.

Which brings me to my next question. I can't think of any situation, under any circumstances, where I listen to anything in mono. What gives?

 

[Farview]

Which brings me to my next question. I can't think of any situation, under any circumstances, where I listen to anything in mono. What gives?

Youtube is mono. When you are listening to a stereo in the next room, you are hearing it in mono. Your clock radio is mono. My daughters old car had the speakers placed in such a way that the driver heard mono. etc...

 

[legionserial]

You're pretty much hearing music in mono when your at a bar or club aswell, Unless you place yourself perfecty between the speakers all night. And that's assuming the speakers are set up symetrically in the first place. And in the case of cars, it's not often that your sitting dead centre there either.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Well, as I see it, there's "real mono", and there's "Sears mono" (so to speak, those are obviously not official terms ), and there's a difference as far the kind of effect each can have on a stereo mix.

Real mono - mono clock radios, mono PA amps out of one loudspeaker (not binaural), a stereo source so far away that the two sources seem like one large source from a directional and volume standpoint - is what one can test and plan for by doing a mono check in the mix.

"Sears mono" is how I would classify the stereo in the next room, a car stereo listening environment, a stereo source in a night club where one is so far off-axis as to be on the equator. What this really is is a stereo signal as it is heard after it is convoluted by the acoustic environment and listening position, While the stereo image may be completely destroyed and the sounds blended together pretty well, it is not the same as a mono mix.

A true mono mix is just an equal summing of both channels. A convoluted stereo image - aka "Sears mono" - while blending and smearing is rarely the same thing; the phase issues and binaural imaging are quite different between the two. In fact such listening conditions will convolute a mono (binaural) signal coming out of both speakers in much the same manner so that the listener is no longer hearing the true mono signal, but rather a new image with it's own phase and image issues.

It is therefore (the way I see it, anyway) impossible to plan for or mix for Sears mono in the studio. Even if you get everything "perfect" in a mono mix in the studio, that's not how it is going to come out in such a listening environment, and such a mix can still have issues of it's own.

So if you want to mix for clock radios, PAs a football field away from the listener, or true mono repro sources, then a mono mix is fine. But IMHO, if you're not really all that worried about those exclusive situations, then mix for an ideal and don't try to handicap for the listening environment, because you're just chasing rainbows there.

G.

 

[starbuck26]

So if you want to mix for clock radios, PAs a football field away from the listener, or true mono repro sources, then a mono mix is fine. But IMHO, if you're not really all that worried about those exclusive situations, then mix for an ideal and don't try to handicap for the listening environment, because you're just chasing rainbows there.
G.

Right. So, since I don't give a shit about clock radios, or having the mix played at a high school football game, I am mixing everything in stereo and not worrying at all what it sounds like in mono.

It seems the reason I "check in mono" is only to see about phase issues and things of that nature... verdad?

(Basically, I read and read and read every post on this site for the past 2-3 years, and so while I'm mixing these little red LEDs go off in my brain and they say "CHECK IN MONO" so I check it and try to surmise what I'm supposed to be looking for...most times I haven't the faintest idea what I'm doing...)

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Right. So, since I don't give a shit about clock radios, or having the mix played at a high school football game, I am mixing everything in stereo and not worrying at all what it sounds like in mono.

It seems the reason I "check in mono" is only to see about phase issues and things of that nature... verdad?

That's how I look at it, anyway. I honestly think that most folks are either just used to the old days of truly mixing for mono because the number of single-speaker playback devices such as transistor radios and car radios with only one dashboard speaker and such were significant, and the rest are just parroting an old standard rule into a modern-day myth.

Just to be fair to you, there are more than a few people who don't agree with me on that, though.

Yeah, you gotta check and make sure your hard-panned line doubling and all that don't wind up canceling each other out, but that's as good an idea for stereo playback as it is for mono.

G.

 

[Farview]

Even though I don't worry about my stuff being played back in mono, I have found that a mix that holds up in mono tends to sound stronger in stereo.

Of course, there are things that happen that you don't plan for. I had some videos made and they went up on youtube. Youtube is mono. It's a different listening experience, luckily, it worked out.

Here is a link to the youtube videos https://www.youtube.com/user/farview

Here is a link to the same videos in stereo http://www.farviewrecording.com/html/video.html

With bands making thier own videos and putting them up on youtube, this is going to be something that needs to be considered.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Even though I don't worry about my stuff being played back in mono, I have found that a mix that holds up in mono tends to sound stronger in stereo.

That is true and a good point that I didn't mean to minimize. It's the idea of mixing *for mono* that I kinda think has seen better days. Until, of course, you bring this up, Jay ....

Of course, there are things that happen that you don't plan for. I had some videos made and they went up on youtube. Youtube is mono.

I'll be honest and say that I hadn't really considered that so much.

That brings up an interesting question, in my mind, though... Just how long will YouTube streaming will stay mono (and, on a similar vein, how much longer mySpace straming and such will stay so awfully compressed.) With InternetII just around the corner and the Internet (and indeed YouTube itself) becoming mainstream distribution media, I don't see the current state of affairs lasting for very long. So the question is; does one plan for now or for two years from now (or both)? I guess there is no one right answer to that, it's up to the individuals, I guess.

I also have to confess that I just can't get used to the metal-centric culture on this BBS, where with all the walls of guitar and distortion that are doubled and quadrupled and panned as hard as a diamond certainly can make mono compatability an issue that looms large. I have to admit that in my local orbit, I rarely come across that stuff, and that with the more rock/blues/jazz/R&B stuff that usually crosses my path, it's usually nowhere near the issue. I kmow I'm a minority here, and I understand that. I just have difficulty remembering it once in a while .

G.

 

[Farview]

I have to admit that in my local orbit, I rarely come across that stuff, and that with the more rock/blues/jazz/R&B stuff that usually crosses my path,

that's because I'm sucking up all the metal in the area.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

that's because I'm sucking up all the metal in the area.

I Thought so! I aways figured that you were somehow taking advantage of those Fermilab electromagnets and using them to suck all the metal into your front yard.

Must be rough on your hard drive

G.

 

[mattr]

I read about the haas delay thing the other day while looking for a way to 'widen' the sound of a mono guitar track - of course its downside as being discussed here is that it all goes awry in mono.

I was interested to know if this was used as a 'dirty trick' in professional mixes so I loaded up some various well-known metal songs with lovely deep, wide guitar mixes. Lo and behold, when I hit the 'mono downmix' button in Sony Vegas the backing guitars practically disappeared.

If they're doing it, I'll do it.

 

[Farview]

I was interested to know if this was used as a 'dirty trick' in professional mixes so I loaded up some various well-known metal songs with lovely deep, wide guitar mixes. Lo and behold, when I hit the 'mono downmix' button in Sony Vegas the backing guitars practically disappeared.

If they're doing it, I'll do it.

You might not be hearing the effects of a haas delay trick. It's pretty easy to get guitars to cancel just by layering different takes and putting them to mono.

I gotta tell you, I haven't heard a metal song in years that didn't have (at least) a doubled rhythm track.

There are a bunch of other things that people do that would not bounce to mono very well. Things like having two mics on the cabinet, one being the main sound and the other being a supporting sound. The main one gets panned one way, the supporting one gets panned the other. Then the part is doubled panned the opposite way. (BTW, if the gain is up too much, this can turn into a real mess) Sometimes the phase is played with between the two mics to create a certain depth.

There are a number of ways you can get phase problems while stacking guitars.

 

[starbuck26]

Hey Farview,

Thanks for the heads up on the youtube=mono bit... We've been a'workin on a video as well... luckily had not gotten too far on it... it'll change the whole approach...

Not that it would really matter. The plan is to build a really small house that barely fits the band, with say 1/2 scale furniture. Then, while we act like we're playing, all of our nephews and young cousins (age seven max) are going to be smashing everything to bits with baseball bats.

Cheers.