SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Agreed. I'm just kinda shaking the branches to see what might fall out.Although if he's missing the high freqs in his analyzer in the DAW (presumably?) then this might not be the case in this instance.
G.
G.
silentsky
Member
I think I need to clarify something. When I speculated that I have too much high frequency absorption, I was talking about in my tracking room--not in my mixing room. I was wondering if too much high frequency absorption in the tracking room might cause the room to sound too dead, so that the instruments that I'm recording sound dull. But now I understand why you guys replied the way you did.
noisewreck
New member
I was actually starting to wonder about this, based on your earlier responses. Thanks for the clarification. This is a possibility. Do the instruments sound duller when you listen to them "live" in that room?
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
As I said earlier, even if you recorded in an anechoic chamber, you should not be rolling off so badly so far down the frequency spectrum. You can't have reflections of frequencies above 10k if the instruments are not generating those frequencies to begin with.
I think the time has come for you to move to the MP3 clinic and post a short sample WAV clip. I have the feeling there's a disconnect between what you're actually experiencing and what we are thinking you are experiencing.
G.
silentsky
Member
Ok, I think maybe I've figured this out. I ran some tests by engaging a high-pass filter and ran the frequency up to around 9 or 10 kHz while playing some of my reference tracks that I imported from a commercial CD. The only thing that I could hear: the hi-hat.
When I'm recording, I don't typically use a dedicated hi-hat mic on a track by itself, because I've always found that I can usually hear enough of it in the overheads and from the leakage into the drum mics. So it would appear that the commercial CD's that I've been using as a reference most likely have a dedicated hi-hat mic, and they've got it cranked enough to make it louder in their mix than what I would typically have in my own mixes.
When I'm recording, I don't typically use a dedicated hi-hat mic on a track by itself, because I've always found that I can usually hear enough of it in the overheads and from the leakage into the drum mics. So it would appear that the commercial CD's that I've been using as a reference most likely have a dedicated hi-hat mic, and they've got it cranked enough to make it louder in their mix than what I would typically have in my own mixes.
The Cancers
New member
See, now that was an interesting thread with a neat solution.
Good job everybody.
Good job everybody.
R
RAMI
Guest
No, that's not it. First of all, not all commercial recordings use a dedicated hi-hat mic. And even if they did. it doesn't mean they'd be cranking it up. It's just part of the mix. I'd even go as far as saying that MOST professional recordings do not use a hi-hat mic anyway.
If you're lacking hi-hat in your mix, then you should re-assess how you're micing your drums. How are you configuring your overheads?
By your original description of the problem, I thought the whole mix was dull and muffled. That's not just hi-hat. There should be a lot more than just the hi-hat covering the hi-end spectrum.
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NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
The overheads you are using do have a more distinct rolloff when you use the omni-pattern but it's there for a reason. Check to see which you are using. The cardoid capsules don't roll off the same and if you are already using one check to make sure you don't have the -10db pad. If you do, try it without because the pad colours the sound a bit. Use the setup that sounds best to you.
This is another good example of why you shouldn't mix with your eyes. You don't really want your high freq's to be as loud as the lower ones and you shouldn't need to mic your hh. Switch things around and experiment until you find the setup that sounds good to you. Using different overheads might help too
silentsky
Member
As I said earlier, I'm using the Recorderman setup for my overheads. I've got a pair of Oktava MC012's (genuine Russian-made), and I'm using the cardioid capsules without the -10 db pad. Don't get me wrong, I do think that my mixes could be better--I'm still learning the art of subtractive EQ, which I think will help. But my main concern was that I was totally missing something up in the highest frequencies.
Maybe I do need to crank my overheads up a bit more in the mix to get more hi-hat and cymbals, but with the Recorderman setup, you get a lot of snare and toms in the overheads, too (almost too much when I crank them up). I wonder if I should try using a more traditional spaced pair or XY setup on the overheads to capture mostly just cymbals without picking up so much of the snare and toms. That would give me more control over my mix.
Maybe I do need to crank my overheads up a bit more in the mix to get more hi-hat and cymbals, but with the Recorderman setup, you get a lot of snare and toms in the overheads, too (almost too much when I crank them up). I wonder if I should try using a more traditional spaced pair or XY setup on the overheads to capture mostly just cymbals without picking up so much of the snare and toms. That would give me more control over my mix.
R
RAMI
Guest
You can try turning down your close mics. There's nothing wrong with not even using the close mic on the snare, if you feel the Recorderman method gives you a lot of snare. I use the Recorderman also, and because of that, I find I barely need to bring in the snare mic. I've done a few drum tracks where, at mixdown, I ended up muting the snare mic.
The most important thing is the mix. Bring up your overheads until they sound good in the mix, with the hats loud enough, etc.....Then, decide if you even need the snare mic.
silentsky
Member
I record mostly hard rock and metal, so I generally like a pretty bombastic, slamming drum sound. In those genres, it seems like using the close mics in the mix gives me more control over compression, gating, etc. So I think I may try the spaced pair configuration so the overheads serve more as spot mics for the cymbals, rather than kit mics to pick up the cymbals, snare, and toms (aka Recorderman).
Actually, let me ask this--do you typically compress your overheads when using the Recorderman setup? I typically haven't, but maybe I should give it a try. The snare usually isn't punchy enough for my taste in the overheads, so I'm sure compressing them would help--as long as I don't overdo it, which would sound nasty on the crash cymbals.
Actually, let me ask this--do you typically compress your overheads when using the Recorderman setup? I typically haven't, but maybe I should give it a try. The snare usually isn't punchy enough for my taste in the overheads, so I'm sure compressing them would help--as long as I don't overdo it, which would sound nasty on the crash cymbals.
Farview
Well-known member
The recorderman setup isn't for overheads, it's for getting the entire kit. It really won't work for metal. You need to go with a spaced pair or XY setup for that style of music.
silentsky
Member
Ok, I checked the settings on the back of my monitors, and I had the high frequency switch set at -2 db. I changed it to -4 db (maximum cut), did a new mix of one of my songs, and then compared it to some of my other mixes. The new mix was definitely brighter and sounded better to me. I guess that my monitors are so overly bright that it was causing me not to put enough highs in my mixes. But I still think I'll try a spaced pair or XY on the overheads where I'll have more control over the cymbals apart from the rest of the kit.
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Davesayssummer
New member
another thing to kind of think about which is just as important as the room your in, is the bass proximity effect. You might be recording to closely to your source which is causing it to be too much low end. I think I'm a shooter in the dark with that statement but I had issues with recording screams and once I told him to back off the mic about 3 feet or so, It sounded much better and far less low end with equal silky top end as I got when he was closer.
silentsky
Member
Yeah, I generally use dynamic mics on everything except vocals and drum overheads, and I tend to mic everything pretty closely (drums, guitar amps, bass amp, etc.). I think I will try backing the mics off a bit to see if the proximity effect is too much at play. Thanks for another good suggestion.
Todzilla
New member
Sounds like you found the culprit.
Otherwise, I would have advised that you record something direct (to bypass your room, mics and preamp for inbound signal), then record a Virtual Instrument (to bypass your room, mics, preamp and A/D for inbound signal). This would reveal at least if it was an inbound signal chain issue. If those tests revealed a similarly no-high-end result, then the prime suspect would be your monitoring setup (D/A, cables, amplifier, speakers, mixing room) or DAW settings.
Otherwise, I would have advised that you record something direct (to bypass your room, mics and preamp for inbound signal), then record a Virtual Instrument (to bypass your room, mics, preamp and A/D for inbound signal). This would reveal at least if it was an inbound signal chain issue. If those tests revealed a similarly no-high-end result, then the prime suspect would be your monitoring setup (D/A, cables, amplifier, speakers, mixing room) or DAW settings.
C
Chibi Nappa
New member
Or re-assess how hard you hit the hi-hat.
I've run into drummers that don't realize they have to mix the drum kit themselves through their performance. If they hit something too softly, it ain't never gonna' sound right no matter what I do with it's close mic (if it even has one). Ditto for if they hit something too hard.
Put a single mic 10 feet away from the drum kit and record the drummer. Play it back for him. Let him hear how he "mixes" his drums.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
DING DING DING DING DING !!!
If a drummer/kit sounds good and well-balanced and all that to someone standing in front of the kit or in the audience, miking and recording it is a no-brainer.
So much effort goes into the whole subject of drum miking and "use this mic measurement technique or that mic placement technique" and all that crap in these forums. If half that effort went into actually getting the playing balance down correctly and into replacing and tuning the skins before punching the record button, things would be so much easier.
G.