Mixers and Home Recording

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bobbsy
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"Now, one of the issues I know with Behringer is inconsistency so it's entirely possible you got a good'un. But personal experience is that you cannot count on this."

I would suggest that you might have got a bad 'un! I also had a Berry BCA2000 AI and the mic amps on that were even better I would say than the 802. I also have a Wharfedale mixer (that is only used to "collect" soundcard outputs and squirt them to my Tannoys) and the mic pres on that are remarkably quiet and it almost certainly uses the same, generic micamp circuitry as the Behringers (despite their claims, they did NOT invent it! been on the infernalnet for years!) .

But! I have a couple of days off and the car is in the shop (MOT) so I will check some stuff with me trusty Levell microvoltmeter!

I would always advocate BTW that noobs get a capacitor (SMD) mic, at least to start with. Many AIs and mixers will struggle for noise free gain on say acoustic guitar with an SM57.

Dave.
 
We'll have to, yet again, agree to disagree. My experience with noisy pre amps on Behringer stuff is based on numerous mixers (but I only ever measured on the 1204 I mentioned) plus the 4 ADA8000s I own (which give me 32 separate channels to listen to and worry about. FYI, I could get away with them in a live situation because my radio mic receivers output line level so the mic pre amps didn't come into it. I only notice the noise a couple of years after buying them and was shocked at how bad they were.

Where we do agree is that dynamic mics are a bad idea with inexpensive gear. Condensers (yeah, I know why you call them capacitor mics but that's a battle I've given up on :) ) are a better bet unless you pay for better-than-entry-level pre amps.
 
Bobbsy said:
We'll have to, yet again, agree to disagree. My experience with noisy pre amps on Behringer stuff is based on numerous mixers (but I only ever measured on the 1204 I mentioned) plus the 4 ADA8000s I own (which give me 32 separate channels to listen to and worry about. FYI, I could get away with them in a live situation because my radio mic receivers output line level so the mic pre amps didn't come into it. I only notice the noise a couple of years after buying them and was shocked at how bad they were.

Where we do agree is that dynamic mics are a bad idea with inexpensive gear. Condensers (yeah, I know why you call them capacitor mics but that's a battle I've given up on :) ) are a better bet unless you pay for better-than-entry-level pre amps.
Click to expand...

Ok, we shall agree to disagree!
BTW the ADA8K pres DO come into it even for line inputs? See attached map.

Forgot! One of the worst aspects of that circuit (and its many clones) is the lack of any NFB around the input transistors which results in the mic/line stages creating more distortion than almost the rest of the circuitry! (apologies for the crap image quality)

Dave.
 

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ecc83 said:
Ok, we shall agree to disagree!
BTW the ADA8K pres DO come into it even for line inputs? See attached map.

Forgot! One of the worst aspects of that circuit (and its many clones) is the lack of any NFB around the input transistors which results in the mic/line stages creating more distortion than almost the rest of the circuitry! (apologies for the crap image quality)

Dave.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know the pre amps are still in circuit whether talking about the mic or line level--but, as mentioned above, the noise issue only comes into play with the gain cranked up--and at line level the gain is, if anything, cranked well down.
 
selectedout said:
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Click to expand...

Ok, you are a spambot or a troll. Bye.
 
Twas brillig, and the slithy mixer toves did gyre and gimble in the fader. All mimsy were the equalisers, and the mome raths outgrabe the pre fade auxes.
 
I made the mistake of buying a cheap mixer way back.. To be honest I bought it mostly with the intent to look cool.
I also bought an electronic drum kit with it. Not realizing that my audio interface at the time had no midi input capabilites to use with my addictive drums software.
So I pulled the cables out of my drum module and ran them through each channel on my mixer and used the gate plugin in reaper to trigger drum samples based on the gate recognizing the barely audible pops the pads emit through the cables.

It was pretty ghetto and it didn't work flawlessly. However it did get me through a tough spot at one point.

Cheap mixers have their place in the home studio world! lol
 
do you think re-titling this thread "Do I need a mixer?" would make people more likely to read it?
 
Well, I think I made the mistake, but, the jury is still out. I bought a tiny Behringer YXNYX802 mixer...It *looks* like it can do different routings, but, for the life of me, I cannot get it to NOT output the tracks I'm playing to BACK into the recorder (making a loop). When I press the buttons to do so (2-TR to CTRL Room or 2-TR to MIX) it totally cuts my live feed.

Anybody have any insight? Driving me nuts...
 
It's going to come down to 1 letter.

If you have the original Behringer Xenyx 802 USB you're out of luck. You can only route the return from the computer to the main mix--and it's the main mix that goes to the computer, so...

However, they've now come out with the "Xenyx Q802USB" which fixes this problem. If you have the newer one the button will be labelled "USB/2 Trk to Cntrl/Headphones" and that's the one you need.
 
What Bobbsy said...except if it's a non USB version and you're using your computer's sound card or an interface. In that case connect the output from the computer to a stereo input channel and the FX output to the input to the computer. Preferably that computer connection would be a proper audio interface, but it should be doable, at lower audio quality, with your stock sound card.

Use the FX send to record any input (in mono). Use the stereo channel to monitor stuff from the computer.
 
hi guys i just upgraded my set up and got my self A&H Zed R 16 . i use a late 2011i mac 20GB with m box pro and profire2626. the daw is pro tools 11 . my issue is iv never used midi . i hooked the zed firewire to mac i can get the faders to work on screen using board but not the transport or any of the other midi buttons . iv herd i need the bomes translator so i bought that for 93.00 found a template from a gearslutz forum to download a user had made but still cant get it running . i am on mavericks did all A&H driver downloads ect . am i missing something as it is very hard to get any info on this anywhere . or im a horrible searcher lol. monitors on sub and near fields and main all work great . just the midi issue .
 
:thumbs up:OK from reading this as a newbie beginner looking to get started i know i don't need or want a mixer. Where do i go from here? I am just starting to go through the forum maybe the answer is buried deep in there.
 
There are other "Stickies" alongside this one which give a darn good overview of the process of home recording--they're a worthwhile read.

However, with regard to the specific "mixer or....?" question, it's relatively easy. You need what's known as an audio interface. An AI is basically a box that accepts audio inputs (usually microphone or a mix of mic, line and/or instrument level), converts it to data than sends it to your computer. It also give you a place to plug in your headphones while recording and your speakers for mixing.

Which AI? Well, this is where you have to do a bit of thinking. How many inputs will you ever need to use at once? This determines the basics of the interface you need. However, for most beginners an interface with two inputs is plenty. Once you start looking at AIs you'll find that two input devices are VERY common and usually have input connectors that can handle a mixture of mic, line and instrument in any combination as long as the total is two. This lets you (for example) record your voice and a guitar at once or an acoustic guitar in stereo or maybe a stereo input from a keyboard (one channel into each connector). The exception to the "two is enough" is if you want to record, for example, a whole drum kit at once. Then you need a MUCH bigger interface--but also way more mics, mic stands, a bigger room, etc. etc.

The other things to watch on your interface are:

Monitoring: You want one that allows "direct hardware monitoring". This means that you can listen to what you're recording before it does a round trip through the computer. Why? The round trip adds "latency" (delay) to what you hear and can get very distracting very quickly.

MIDI: You MAY decide you need a way to input and output MIDI via the interface, though this is becoming less of an issue with lots of MIDI devices not using USB.

Computer Interface: Most AIs these days use USB which is perfectly adequate but you may find some bigger ones that use firewire. Firewire is good...but it's also "on the way out" and it's pretty unusual to find a computer that can handle FW these days.

Which interface to get? As I said, there are tons of 2 channel ones. Two that I have personal experience with are the M Audio M Track and the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Both work well and do what it says on the box. Others will likely dive in with other names.
 
Bobbsy said:
There are other "Stickies" alongside this one which give a darn good overview of the process of home recording--they're a worthwhile read.

However, with regard to the specific "mixer or....?" question, it's relatively easy. You need what's known as an audio interface. An AI is basically a box that accepts audio inputs (usually microphone or a mix of mic, line and/or instrument level), converts it to data than sends it to your computer. It also give you a place to plug in your headphones while recording and your speakers for mixing.

Which AI? Well, this is where you have to do a bit of thinking. How many inputs will you ever need to use at once? This determines the basics of the interface you need. However, for most beginners an interface with two inputs is plenty. Once you start looking at AIs you'll find that two input devices are VERY common and usually have input connectors that can handle a mixture of mic, line and instrument in any combination as long as the total is two. This lets you (for example) record your voice and a guitar at once or an acoustic guitar in stereo or maybe a stereo input from a keyboard (one channel into each connector). The exception to the "two is enough" is if you want to record, for example, a whole drum kit at once. Then you need a MUCH bigger interface--but also way more mics, mic stands, a bigger room, etc. etc.

The other things to watch on your interface are:

Monitoring: You want one that allows "direct hardware monitoring". This means that you can listen to what you're recording before it does a round trip through the computer. Why? The round trip adds "latency" (delay) to what you hear and can get very distracting very quickly.

MIDI: You MAY decide you need a way to input and output MIDI via the interface, though this is becoming less of an issue with lots of MIDI devices not using USB.

Computer Interface: Most AIs these days use USB which is perfectly adequate but you may find some bigger ones that use firewire. Firewire is good...but it's also "on the way out" and it's pretty unusual to find a computer that can handle FW these days.

Which interface to get? As I said, there are tons of 2 channel ones. Two that I have personal experience with are the M Audio M Track and the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Both work well and do what it says on the box. Others will likely dive in with other names.
Click to expand...

Very well put man...

:)
 
OK so here i go. As a point i really now nothing at all about home recording i have been researching the topic and joining in some forums to get a handle on it. So, yes i am a neophyte to home recording. In fact I have have no equipment at all and i am looking into what i would need as a minimum with some qualify to get started. What i have surmised thus far is that as a beginner to start off with is i need an AI, in which they are many different types available. Along with that i need a recording software which i understand any good AI comes with a basic version of some-type. And of course with that a computer and monitoring equipment, either as a start set good headphones and some studio speakers. That is to get things going if i am reading and interpreting everything correctly. As i said before i am a singer songwriter you wants to record as a hobby. Which i hope will help me in my self development. I have found this is a good forum to-date with lots of good information. So the nest question would be with all that is available how do i go about what equipment would be best for me i mean as far as researching the products. I figure i need an AI with minimum of 2 I/O, maybe be more. I would like to record guitar/voice, as a start. Next question would be the software capabilities can i record both at the same time on different tracks or will it only record in stereo and if i wanted different tracks do i need to do them separately. Forgive me but i know nothing. And maybe after a few days/weeks of reading i might find some of the answers:o:o.
 
Welcome to the addictive world of home recording!

You seem to have thought things through fairly well, but a few comments on what you've come up with.

First of, you don't mention a microphone or two with all the attendant bits like stands, pop filters, XLR-XLR cables etc. There's a whole forum here devoted to that topic so prepare to be confused as everyone has their own opinions.

Then there's the thorny issue of acoustic treatment. You'll likely find pretty soon that you want to do a bit--there's a forum with instructions on how to make things like bass traps but, for a start, you might want to try a couple of "L" shaped frames made of cheap PVC pipe to hold moving blankets attached with spring clips. Cheap and it'll get you going.

Do try to find budget for a pair of decent monitor speakers. Mixing--even on the best headphones can be hit or miss since the human ear reacts differently to a close up source compared to something more distant.

Don't overestimate the "Lite" version DAWs that come with interfaces. They tend to be pretty stripped down and are there mainly to act like the street pusher giving you your first hit of heroin for free. Once you've started the learning curve on one DAW you'll find you're reluctant to change even if the DAW isn't perfect for you. Most of the big names give one month free trials so it's worth having a go with each until you find one with features and an interface to suit you. By all means try Reaper--it's very popular, well supported and WAY cheaper than anything else!

Now, interfaces. A 2 in/2 out is probably the best starting point for you. The more tracks you add, the more complexity (and more need for room acoustic treatment. There are tons with this spec. Two I know and can recommend are the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or (a bit cheaper) the M Audio M Track. I bought one of the latter just recently for a specific project and have been pleasantly surprised at the quality for the money.

And, yes, both these interfaces allow you to put the inputs onto separate tracks in your DAW for later mixing.

Have fun.
 
In reading through the wise words of Bobbsy, BSG et al and the seemingly ever present interest noobs have on "mixers" and multi (more than two) input AIs, something clicked in this old, med ridden brain.

Noobs might not be fully aware that even with a 2 input AI they are NOT limited on the amount of tracks they can produce.

If you are a good guitarist then in addition to a rhythm track and lead you can surely lay down a basic root and 5th bass line? Add vocals, harmonize with yourself or GF/BF and you are up to 8 tracks before you know it!

Yes, you need some good musical chops to dub extra tracks and sometimes the DAW is not as friendly as it might be in the routing and syncing but if my son can make a decent job of it I reckon most folks can! (he has the chops but is a technical numpty).

The "lite" DAWs that come with hardware are often track limited but usually give a minimum of 8. Reaper will do as many as is needed or the hardware is capable of.

The only fly in the ointment is drums. If that is your chosen instrument you will need at least 4 tracks I would think but the problems with acoustics, noise egress etc mean recording will only be a part of the problem.

Lastly just me but don't buy an interface without MIDI, should add nothing to the cost. One day you WILL thank me!

Dave.
 
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