Mix for Master

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starbuck26

starbuck26

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Hey gents,

I'm mixing my band's first full EP. It's baking my noodle. This is the first time I'm mixing anything to be mastered by another studio, and really the first time I'm really paying attention to my fader levels other than just adjusting them to what sounds right.

I tracked everything between -12 and -8 rms with peaks no higher than -6. The folks at the mastering studio tell me a mix between -10 and -8db is optimal to leave them with enough headroom. So I thought I was golden.

Now, I'm having problems. I'm adding overdubs all over the place, compressing the drums, and eqing everything. Problem is, when I'm eqing I wind up adding between 1 and 3 db per channel... then all of them combined, and im getting peaks around 0 to +3db on the master fader.

Basically, is there anything wrong with subtracting gain at the master fader to bring my levels down to where I want them overall, or should I go back and redo the eqs and mix the whole thing at a lower level?

Does this make any sense?

Please help me out before I get a nosebleed. :D

T
 
You don't want to just pull down the master fader cause there can still be problems before it gets to it
 
I typically cut more than boost while eq'ing. Might be something to be aware of in the future. I know it doesn't help your situation now. I think if it were me I would just take all the track levels all the way down and start from scratch. Bring the drums up first and then bass, vocals, and everything else. No need to re-adjust the eq if it's where you like it. If it's still too loud start over again till you end up where you want to be. Everyone works differently. I mix on an analog console so this technique works for me.
 
I mixed two tracks out of an eventual nine, so I'm going to start over and try to cut rather than boost.

I know I'm not supposed to add gain with the fader, but is there anything wrong with cutting gain at the fader? Boosting 3db in eq and then cutting to compensate at the fader, I mean?
 
jndietz said:
Why aren't you allowed to add gain with the fader?
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Well, I don't remember where I heard it, but I thought it better to record at a good target level by adding gain with the preamps, keeping the faders zeroed. Maybe that's all off the mark. I never really learned how to mix from a book or from someone who actually knew how to do it, just picked up pieces of advice from people all over the place.
 
*Generally* you're going to be okay reducing the master fader.

Personally, I like going at it at the track level - But that can affect dynamics and post-fader effects sends, etc.

(And not to be picky, but you're talking about dBFS - Not RMS - BIG difference).
 
Massive Master said:
*Generally* you're going to be okay reducing the master fader.

Personally, I like going at it at the track level - But that can affect dynamics and post-fader effects sends, etc.

(And not to be picky, but you're talking about dBFS - Not RMS - BIG difference).
Click to expand...

Right... so, basically, here's my approach:

I'm going to systematically redo each track, trying to cut rather than add track by track with my eqs... which *should* keep my tracks from jumping in volume before the master fader. But, in the end, I will correct my values with the master fader by cutting volume to keep my peaks at -6db and my levels at -8 to -12dbs RMS.

Right?

It still amazes me that these litte numbers next to all these faders actually mean something...:D

Sort of the antithesis of rock n' roll, no? :cool:
 
starbuck26 said:
Sort of the antithesis of rock n' roll, no? :cool:
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Completely off-topic, but a great engineer I know told me about this local punk who records his band live and mixes next to an egg-timer. He sets it to half a n hour or something, and when it goes off he leaves his mix as it is at that point to stop the mix getting stagnant or over-complicated. Now THAT us rock 'n' roll :D
 
Elton Bear said:
Completely off-topic, but a great engineer I know told me about this local punk who records his band live and mixes next to an egg-timer. He sets it to half a n hour or something, and when it goes off he leaves his mix as it is at that point to stop the mix getting stagnant or over-complicated. Now THAT us rock 'n' roll :D
Click to expand...

Im not sure I get it. WTF is an egg-timer? I searched the cubase help file, and then on zzounds.com. Nothing.







:D
 
starbuck26 said:
Right... so, basically, here's my approach:

I'm going to systematically redo each track, trying to cut rather than add track by track with my eqs... which *should* keep my tracks from jumping in volume before the master fader. But, in the end, I will correct my values with the master fader by cutting volume to keep my peaks at -6db and my levels at -8 to -12dbs RMS.

Right?

It still amazes me that these litte numbers next to all these faders actually mean something...:D

Sort of the antithesis of rock n' roll, no? :cool:
Click to expand...

Somebody already got the dBFS thing... :cool:

Anyway - If everything is okay but you're clipping everywhere, just grab *all* the faders and pull them all down a few dB. Again, that might affect dynamics processing and post-fade sends somewhat - But IMO, it's usually for the better that way anyway... You can always add a little more verb if it dropped too much or what not.
 
To be honest I never knew you were "supposed" to leave the faders on the mixer at zero and only change the preamp level.

I wonder what difference it makes?
 
jndietz said:
To be honest I never knew you were "supposed" to leave the faders on the mixer at zero and only change the preamp level.

I wonder what difference it makes?
Click to expand...

I don't really know anything... but logically it seems to me that you want to get a proper level coming in when tracking, and leave yourself a bit of headroom in the mix. If you have a low signal coming in and jack the fader to its max... you'll only be able to lower the volume from thereon out.

But perhaps someone who knows what they're talking about can weigh in on that one. I've been trying to figure out where I heard that... still no luck.
 
starbuck26 said:
Basically, is there anything wrong with subtracting gain at the master fader to bring my levels down to where I want them overall, or should I go back and redo the eqs and mix the whole thing at a lower level?

Does this make any sense?

Please help me out before I get a nosebleed. :D

T
Click to expand...

It will depend on the bus structure of your DAW. For example in Pro tools TDM the bus operates at double the word length of the individual tracks to allow for additional headroom when summing tracks, so lowering levels here is absolutely fine. If OTOH the bus operates at the same bit depth as the tracks it would technically be better to reduce the level of the tracks.

The correct answer is to find out the details of how your DAW operates and work accordingly.

Doesn't help with the nosebleed though ...
 
starbuck26 said:
I don't really know anything... but logically it seems to me that you want to get a proper level coming in when tracking, and leave yourself a bit of headroom in the mix.
Click to expand...
From the way I look at it, this gets to the heart of it.

I look at mixing in the DAW as just another stage in the over gain structure chain; assume that you want the signal going out to be at roughly the same level as you have going in, more or less. Pretend that instead of going to digital master after mixdown, that it'll be heading back out to analog, as if you were recording to tape or sending it to an analog mastering chain. Considering most modern converters equate a 0VU analog line level to be equal to somewhere in the -22 to -16dBRMS range, this is a pretty good target range to look for coming out of the mix.

I've found that if you have good track levels coming into the mix - having a clean analog level going into the converter and just letting the converter do it's thing without boosting or cutting the digital track faders when recording - and by keeping those levels constant throughout the plug-in chain like you would at any analog gain stage, that the mix usually pretty much works itself out level-wise just fine.

Of course much depends on the music type and arrangement and all that, but I find for most rock/blues/pop/roots-related genres, with the master faders in my DAW set to unity gain, that the mixes seem to almost automatically come out right in the previously-mentioned RMS range (around -20 to -17 dBRMS) as if by magic.

But it's not magic; it's actually that the engineers that have designed the gear (hard and soft) that we work with to actually work that way. Somebody actually planned for all this. Kinda neat how that works, isn't it? :)

G.
 
DavidK said:
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week. ;)
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No charge to get in, but it'll cost you a $10 exit charge if you leave before the show's over.


Worth every penny. :D




Sorry, Dave, you left that softball hanging there. I had to swing at it ;).

G.
 
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