Midi timecode...how???

[VESSEL2020]

Can anyone help explain the process to hooking up a MIDI timecode?
I was gonna ask this in the newbie forum,..but I'm not really a newbie,
and I have enough experience to pump out what I think is a decent recording.

I see it explained in some of my manuals, like say my 424 mkII, 488 mkII,
644,& 688...but I don't really understand the process in which / how they explain it.
What I need to know is,..What do I need to do this? (gear)
What it can do for me beneficially, using cassette format recording.
I've been recording with cassettes my whole life, and don't think it'll ever change.
Is it really worth messing around with it?...or just a big headache?

Reason why I'm asking is,...I'm mainly a electronic musician, when producing music by myself, using a bunch of hardware synths, electronic drums, drum machines, samplers, and various noise makers. Don't use a computer for recording, only to transfer to mp3's, etc.
Other than that, I play acoustic drums in 3 other bands.

I have a ton of MIDI cables, MIDI splitter, a couple sequencers, the above mentioned recorders and more, with a stock pile of high end cassettes (type II, metal, etc.)
I'm surprised I haven't asked someone this question awhile ago,...being the fact that everything I use has MIDI.
I understand that its purpose is to sync with whatever audio I have goin' / recording,...but that's it. I know MIDI is only data transmission,...just don't understand the benefits of this, and how much easier or better, it will be for me making the music that I make...Electronic, Industrial, Ambient, Metal, Noise...Soundscapes.
Is there an easy way for someone to break this process down for me in "dummy" language? I'd really appreciate it.
One of the things I'm refering to is...How they say in a manual to leave the
8th track open for MIDI timecode.

 

[FunkDaddy]

I don't know a whole lot about it (never used it myself) but I notice you said you're recording to tape. I think you'd need a MIDI to SMPTE converter to use it with tape? Or I might be remembering something wrong.

Other than that, I'm curious as well as to the benefit of using timecode, never understood it myself.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

They tell you to leave the 8th track open because if you're using MIDI Time Code (MTC), the machine will use that 8th track not for audio, but rather as a data track for recording the tine code data. This is common practice with all kinds of tape formats for recoding the time code.

The time code needs to be recorded on the tape with the audio for two reasons; the time code needs to accompany the audio on the tape so you can take that tape from machine to machine and have the same time code reference to go with it, and recording the time code on the tape with the audio endures that the time code is synched with the audio as it is recorded on the same tape at the same time, running through the same machine with the same motors at the exact same speed. It's kind of like like recording the soundtrack to a movie right on the edge of the same film on which the movie is printed, so that when you play them through the projector, the picture and the sound are always synched together.

As far as hardware required for hookup, you need MTC-ready or MTC-capable gear first, of course, and the cables to connect their MTC channels together (these cables can vary from simple 1/8" TS mini-cables to TOS optical connectors, depending upon the hardware, though the 1/8" are probably the most common among consumer and prosumer gear),and then using the MTC comfiguration options (or sometimes just physical switches), you select one machine to be the "master" time code generator and all the other machines to be the "slaves" that get the time code from the master. This way, the "master" acts as the single "clock" that winds up synching it all together.

In your case this master signal is what gets recorded or "striped" to the 8th track of your casette tape (with the tape in record mode "slaving" to that master signal and recording it), then when that tape gets played back, that "stripe" of time code becomes the master time code to which the rest of the MTC-controlled gear gets slaved; that ensures that everything is synched in time to the audio that's already recorded on the tape.

Time code is helpful, especially with tape recordings, to ensure that all events within all machines are synched together regardless of any motor speed issues or wow and flutter variations in the recording, and are often used to trigger outside events it other gear at specific selected times in a soundtrack. They are also big for editing purposes to be able to set up an EDL (edit decision list) for an editor or engineer to follow (start fade in at time code 00:02:34:16, mute channel 6 at 00:03:01:22m etc.). These EDLs are used professionally and semi-professionally in commercial-grade editing suites and studios, but are rare on a "home recording" level unless it's a home-based prosumer A/V setup.

That's a short and kind of over-simplified overview, but I hope it helps get the ball rollin' for you.

BTW, it can be said that the greatest minds don't discuss the future, but live fully in the moment instead.

G.

 

[VESSEL2020]

It's kind of like like recording the soundtrack to a movie right on the edge of the same film on which the movie is printed, so that when you play them through the projector, the picture and the sound are always synched together.

That says it all...
That was an excellent way to explain this to me...and
I appreciate you takin' the time to explain everything.

Now,..My next question would be,..How to set it up.
I believe the 644 and the 688 have a master code generator that you speak of.
I do have a couple little 1/8 TS cables that you speak of.
I also have a couple different hardware sequencers that have the connection for the 1/8 cable. Like my Alesis MMT-8.

Is there 2 cassettes used in this process? One to use for audio, and one for data? This is where I'm confused.

You did an excellent job explaining the MTC process,
Now I need to know how to hook it up,..as I cannot find any videos or explainations on the net about this.

Thanks Glen

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Now,..My next question would be,..How to set it up.
I believe the 644 and the 688 have a master code generator that you speak of.
I do have a couple little 1/8 TS cables that you speak of.
I also have a couple different hardware sequencers that have the connection for the 1/8 cable. Like my Alesis MMT-8.

Is there 2 cassettes used in this process? One to use for audio, and one for data? This is where I'm confused.

I'm not sure of exactly the setup you're shooting for.

As mentioned before, the audio and the time code are not laid on separate tapes. MTC is typically laid down on the outside/last track of the multitrack audio tape. If you have a 4-track tape, you have three tracks of usable audio and the 4th track is reserved for the MTC. On an 8-track tape, the first 7 tracks would be standard audio and the 8th track would instead be used to record/playback the MTC.

G.

 

[miroslav]

It's a per system thing...but the overall concept is the same.

Drop SMPTE on the last track of your tape deck however your deck allows. Some have built-in code generators that do that for you. Choose 30fps for the SMPTE code.

The only devices that you listed that potentially "could" connect to the deck via MTC/SMPTE sync are probably just your sequencers, and not the keyboards. The keyboards connect to the sequencers via basic MIDI.

Now...you look in your sequencer and find where you configure the sequencer to work with MTC/SMPTE. The sequencer does the job of converting MTC to SMPTE and vice versa...while the deck simply plays the SMPTE of the last track that you recorded it to.

Not sure about the tape decks you have....but I doubt they have on-board chase-lock sync capabilities (check your manual)....which means the deck will need to be the Master and the sequencer the Slave. So...you may need to set that in the sequencer...telling it to be the Slave.
You also set the sequencer for 30fps...and make sure the it's getting the output of the tape deck's last track (w/SMPTE) and that you have it set right at the sequencer (where does the SMPTE from the deck come into the sequencer).

Once all that is configured...when you start the tape with the SMPTE on it...the sequencer should chase/lock and sync to the incoming SMPTE from the deck.

That's about it...but the devil’s in the configuration...and that is specific to the gear you have.

If the tape decks ARE able to chase-lock because they DO have built-in synchronizers...then you can make THEM the Slave and let the sequencer be the Master, though sometimes the sequencer may need specific drivers to be the complete Master if it's also going to control the decks transport (Stop, FF, RW, Record)

I've used a couple of different variations of all of the above...but my tape deck HAS a built-in synchronizer, my sequencer has drives for my deck, and my DAW also has the MTC capabilities...so it wasn't very complicated but the initial setup took a bit of fiddling.

 

[VESSEL2020]

It's a per system thing...but the overall concept is the same.

Drop SMPTE on the last track of your tape deck however your deck allows. Some have built-in code generators that do that for you. Choose 30fps for the SMPTE code.

The only devices that you listed that potentially "could" connect to the deck via MTC/SMPTE sync are probably just your sequencers, and not the keyboards. The keyboards connect to the sequencers via basic MIDI.

Now...you look in your sequencer and find where you configure the sequencer to work with MTC/SMPTE. The sequencer does the job of converting MTC to SMPTE and vice versa...while the deck simply plays the SMPTE of the last track that you recorded it to.

Not sure about the tape decks you have....but I doubt they have on-board chase-lock sync capabilities (check your manual)....which means the deck will need to be the Master and the sequencer the Slave. So...you may need to set that in the sequencer...telling it to be the Slave.
You also set the sequencer for 30fps...and make sure the it's getting the output of the tape deck's last track (w/SMPTE) and that you have it set right at the sequencer (where does the SMPTE from the deck come into the sequencer).

Once all that is configured...when you start the tape with the SMPTE on it...the sequencer should chase/lock and sync to the incoming SMPTE from the deck.

That's about it...but the devil’s in the configuration...and that is specific to the gear you have.

If the tape decks ARE able to chase-lock because they DO have built-in synchronizers...then you can make THEM the Slave and let the sequencer be the Master, though sometimes the sequencer may need specific drivers to be the complete Master if it's also going to control the decks transport (Stop, FF, RW, Record)

I've used a couple of different variations of all of the above...but my tape deck HAS a built-in synchronizer, my sequencer has drives for my deck, and my DAW also has the MTC capabilities...so it wasn't very complicated but the initial setup took a bit of fiddling.

I guess the 644 and 688 have a built in MTS (midi time sync)..I have both (1 644, & 2 688's)
Would I still need a MIDI to SMPTE converter to do this?
Or does this MTS do the job for me?
I'm just really confused on this whole thing,..but as an electronic musician,
I know I can benefit from it. Especially playing live.
I guess what I'm trying to do is, Hook one of my 688's up to a sequencer (MMT-8)...and have the sequencers MIDI DATA transfered into audio???
It'd be alot easier for someone to show me hands on,..but unfortunately that's impossible.
Thanks for the input fellas!

 

[nate_dennis]

My reccomendation: get a JL Cooper (that's the brand) PPS-100. It's a 1RU mountable code generater/converter. Here's a simple set up to get you in the mindset, this is what I've done.

Connect your PPS100 to the SMPTE (stands for Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) in. Start your code and record the code (which is actually and audible sound) to the eighth track. Then you can move your cable on your deck from the SMPTE IN, to SMPTE OUT. You will put that cable to the INPUT of the PPS 100. You'll have to use the manual to get the details on how, but you set up a "song" on the 100. You tell it where you want it to start (which frame, minute, second, etc) the BPM, and the time sig.

Now connect a midi cable to a drum machine (I was using a Boss Dr660.) Build a song that uses a simple drum beat over and over and over.

Now focus on your instruments for a second. I know you do electronic, but for ease of explanaition, lets say you want to sketch out the song with an acoustic guitar. Arm your track (making sure that track 8 is not armed or being monitored.) When you push "play" (and of course record) the drum machine will be playing your song, but not recording. You can sketch your song with your guitar. Then when you have enough material, you can rebuild your drum track with the sounds you really want. Since you didn't print the song yet, any changes you made will be played back IN TIME with everything else. Then you can print your drums, by using the drum outputs, into the deck, and arming them. Since it's all run by the SYNC, it'll be in time.

The cool thing is, the PPS 100 can convert to more than just MTC. So you probably can hook that thing to any of your sequencers. Depending on how many machines your sequencer(s) can drive, you could run a whole midi studio off that one time code and everything should stay locked. It's pretty slick.

The cool thing with that is, when you fast forward or rewind, the PPS100 reads the code, tells the other gear where you're at, and everything jumps to that point. I sat grinning like a child the first time I saw all that happen. It's pretty cool and a very useful tool for solo musicians.

BTW I scored (should be read "STOLE") my PPS 100 for less than $4 (+shipping) of the Bay. "Old antiquated" technology is cheap and great!!!



**edit** I didn't see your reply there. Sorry. I don't know about the sync options on the 688. Sorry. I use the above setup with my 488mkII

 

[miroslav]

I know I can benefit from it. Especially playing live.
I guess what I'm trying to do is, Hook one of my 688's up to a sequencer (MMT-8)...and have the sequencers MIDI DATA transfered into audio???

Maybe you need to clarify why you think this will be a benefit...describe exactly what you want or think you will achieve? I’m not sure why you would want to use this sync setup live???

How many synth tracks are you wanting to transfer at one time? You can always simply play the parts as you record into the 688...completely skipping the sequencer.
You just rewind and record the next synth track while listening to the playback of the first.

I'm sure you can sync it all up...I'm just wondering if it's overkill or not even needed for whatever your ultimate goals is.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Maybe you need to clarify why you think this will be a benefit...describe exactly what you want or think you will achieve? I’m not sure why you would want to use this sync setup live???

How many synth tracks are you wanting to transfer at one time? You can always simply play the parts as you record into the 688...completely skipping the sequencer.
You just rewind and record the next synth track while listening to the playback of the first.

I'm sure you can sync it all up...I'm just wondering if it's overkill or not even needed for whatever your ultimate goals is.

Well,...
I guess what i want is what you would call "backing tracks"...for an electronic live setup.
Say I recorded all my sequences,...and needed a certain synth part to
be triggered while I'm playing electronic drums.
I guess an easier way to do this would be to setup my 564 minidisc (have 2 of those too),...but most of my recordings are on tape (cassette).
Really,.. I'd like to use both the 688 & 564 in a live setting for backing tracks.
I'm the only one, who will be entertaining. ( one man band )
Also, I'd like to bring an arsenal of synths out with me, and use 'em all.
Maybe there's an easier way around this?
This MIDI timecode thing has me baffled!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Well,...
I guess what i want is what you would call "backing tracks"...for an electronic live setup.
Say I recorded all my sequences,...and needed a certain synth part to
be triggered while I'm playing electronic drums.

If I understand you correctly, you'd need the tape to be pre-cued up precisely to each recorded sequence before it became time to trigger them, and upon the trigger, have the tape start playing the sequence exactly on the beat with your live drumming. Have you considered simply recording the sequences all in-line and on their own tracks as if you were doing a live performance, and then just playing the live e-drums along with pre-timed multitrack recording? No TC needed for that.

G.

 

[miroslav]

I'm the only one, who will be entertaining. ( one man band )
Also, I'd like to bring an arsenal of synths out with me, and use 'em all.
Maybe there's an easier way around this?

This MIDI timecode thing has me baffled!

Yeah...in concept, what you want to do is possible. In practice it may be like trying to do a juggling act during a wind/rain storm.
With that type of setup...your entire act hinges on everything firing exactly when it should...but it's been done.
I'm just not sure you really want to include the tape deck into the equation...why not just work with the sequencers and synths?

 

[VESSEL2020]

Yeah...in concept, what you want to do is possible. In practice it may be like trying to do a juggling act during a wind/rain storm.
With that type of setup...your entire act hinges on everything firing exactly when it should...but it's been done.
I'm just not sure you really want to include the tape deck into the equation...why not just work with the sequencers and synths?

So my "baffled-ness" is a little valid per say...

As far as the 688 in the equation,...I have some backing tracks recorded
to tape that sound really good with some crazy "real-time" tweeks,
that I probably will never be able to duplicate!

Like stretching the sound of delay (kinda like the sound of tape self oscillating)..but a little wilder sounding.
The only way I could do this, is manually..but then wouldn't be able to play the drums,..so I'd have to have the backing track.

Thank for everyone's help, anyway.
I did learn a thing or two, from you guys.
Very much appreciated!

@ miroslav - That picture was the best! I needed that laugh!
it's been a bad month.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

@ miro: What, no cymbals inside the knees? Those were always my favorites.




G.

 

[VESSEL2020]

BTW, it can be said that the greatest minds don't discuss the future, but live fully in the moment instead.

G.

I can't argue with that!..

 

[VESSEL2020]

@ miro: What, no cymbals inside the knees? Those were always my favorites.




G.

.....Me too!

 

[miroslav]

@ miro: What, no cymbals inside the knees? Those were always my favorites.




G.

I had to give those up... ...I wore out my knees skiing.

 

[VESSEL2020]

If I understand you correctly, you'd need the tape to be pre-cued up precisely to each recorded sequence before it became time to trigger them, and upon the trigger, have the tape start playing the sequence exactly on the beat with your live drumming. Have you considered simply recording the sequences all in-line and on their own tracks as if you were doing a live performance, and then just playing the live e-drums along with pre-timed multitrack recording? No TC needed for that.

G.

I like this idea,...But the thing is,..I'll be gettin' up from the e-drums and switching to synths. Like say,..as soon as I'm done with a beat on the drums, and want to switch over to synths,...I would trigger a drum beat / loop that I already recorded on tape or mini disc...with a foot pedal or just hitting a pad that triggers a loop.
Still tryin' to come up with the best / easiest possible setup.
Any ideas are welcome. I appreciate everyones tips so far.