Mic pre companies not adjusting prices?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jeff0633
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jeff0633 said:
Hi folks. seeing an ad a little while ago got me to thinking. FMR audio has the rNP, Maudio the Tampa, and other companies have similar stuff, but then I see an Ad for a single channel Avalon M5 for 1200 dollars. Can they seriously say that their single channel mic pre is 900 dollars better than a mic pre from an RNP? Somehow I find that hard to accept. One of the pres in the RNP is around $230 dollars. Is the Avalon M5 really 900 dollars BETTER? Can Avalon really come forward with this suggestion? When will the big-time expensive pres start coming down in price. It seems some of them are living in the past, before the huge glut of home studios and didgital audio, when hardly no one had a bedroom studio. These changes have spawned an entire new "audio arms race" where products are getting better and better. the RNP is a classic example of this. This is a very high quality unit for 230 bucks per channel. I don't believe for a second that the Avalon M5 is 900 dollars better per channel. Do you? Are companies like Avalon living in the era when there were very few bedroom studios or what? Won't there be more and more companies releasing great products like the RNP, the Brick, the Tampa and all that? Won't companies like Avalon be forced to face the fact that mic pres by other companies are Coming closer and closer to the quality that they have, and are doing it for far cheaper than they are? I realize that the Avalon is a better pre than the RNP, but 900 DOLLARS BETTER? I would love to hear some other thoughts on this. Will RNP quality for 500 bucks be something we can look forward to from other companies?

Thanks

Jeff
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OK. I come to you and tell you that I want you to record a Pink Floyd Concert. It is a reunion and a one shot deal.

Can you honestly sit back and consider using an RNP or a dozen other "cheap" pieces of equipment realizing that if anything dies, you missed the only moment in history?

Imagine. Pro equipment soars over the cheaper equipment in so many areas other than sound. This is a beat to death type of post where people sure don't get it. Go to your mechanic and tell him to use anything BUT Snap-On tools. Sure they cost ten times more, but any real pro mechanic understands why.
 
However, this is about the first negative review of The Brick I have seen. I don't think it is anything that sounds revolutionary, but I think it sounds pretty good on a lot of things and $400 is a great deal. Interesting that Mr. Dot thinks it sounds wooly...
 
boingoman said:
No to mention something that hasn't been said yet. The hardware/labor cost alone for some top-end pres is more than the price of a lot of budget gear.

Many high-end pres can have several hundred dollars of op-amps, servos, tube circuit parts, and transformers alone. And require a significant amount of hand-assembly.

That's before precision pots and other high-quality parts, and rugged housings.
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Yes, and not to mention some of these companies are not very big and are not selling in volume like MAudio, Behringer or whoever. So they are not going to get the component volume prices that the manufacturers of those cheap preamps get. Just another thing that add's up to higher cost. Any kind of manual labor in the assembly process can add substantial cost. If Avalon's could be massed produced like Behringer Amp modellers they might only cost a few hundred but they sure wouldn't have that sound quality that sets them apart from cheap pre's.
 
xstatic said:
Why buy a nice mic? It's just a diaphragm that amplifies the sound. ... Why buy a nice guitar? It's just a bunch of wood with pickups and strings and a couple knobs, the little $100 guitar at the local music store has one that looks just like it, it must sound the same. :P
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Because all of these things you mention will have a very large and significant impact on your finished, recorded project. Unlike the mic pre, which will have a relatively small impact in comparison.
 
Reggie said:
Interesting that Mr. Dot thinks it sounds wooly...
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Some people consider that to mean "warm."

Besides, it's probably one of Soundpure's low-margin items. :D
 
Some false analogys?

Love the thread I started. and I have learned a lot. But there is still something bothering me. A coupk,e have made what seem to me to be a false analogy. My whole question, which I should have mentioned, was because I had read a review from a guy that had the M5 and an RNP, and he DID not say the difference was as between a race car and a Saturn. Believe me, if I got out of a Saturn and jumped into to a Nascar racer, the difference would be dramatic, and so shockingly different as to leave no doubt that there is a larg gulf between the two cars. That was my entire point in the form of a question. The reviewer said he would prefer the RNP in some instances. Much of what he said had to do with flavors. At no time did he say that the Avalon stood head and shoulders above the RNP, like a Nascar would above a Saturn. I wanted to know if there was a 900 dollar "gulf" between the RNP and the M5. To me, that would be relative to the masive difference were you to jump out of your Saturn and hop in a Race car and hit the gas. The difference would be *Monumental* between the two. $900 dollar is a lot of money (at least for me). 900 dollars represents a *gulf" But does the sound have the same gulf? The reviewer (and he wasn't intending to), revealed through his words that he had the overall impression that the two units didn't differ very much. each being better (to his ears anyway) for different purposes. He didn't have the reaction someone would have from jumping out of their Saturn and hopping into a Nascar. I think that review may have been right in this forum. Anyway, I just wanted to give the reason for my post.

Jeff
 
Well, analogies aren't perfect.

If I used a car analogy, I would compare vehicle uses, not speeds.

In that case, I'd want a car with a smooth ride on a bumpy road.

If I went offroad, I'd want a four-wheeler instead of a car.

On snow, I'd want a snowmobile.

That reviewer is right, and also remember the RNP is kind of an exception in terms of price/performance.

At some point in your experience, you will realize that different pres sound better with different mics in different situations. Changing either the mic or the pre can have a big difference on the sound you get from a source.

In one situation, mic X might sound the best with pre Y.

Something that hasn't been touched on yet:

One of the things that seperates a great pre from an OK pre is what happens in a mix. If you have twenty tracks from an OK pre in a mix, any little flaws it has are going to be exaggerated.

If it has a touch of wooly sound in the low mids, it's gonna pile up and you have to compensate, sometimes to the point where a frequency range be hurt. That is if you can fix it at all. A big pile-up at 150-250 is gonna muddy things up bad, and kill your seperation.The same thing in the highs. That "little bit too bright" can sneak up on you. That little bit of "toob" warmth just turns into a pile of mush. Or whatever the particular "thing" of the pre is. The thing is it can be hard to figure exactly what is going on, or what caused it. Something just seems "wrong".

Serious pres tend to have a well-defined space they sit in in a mix. Part of this depends on your mixer/software, but the pre is a big part. With nicer pres, things kind of make their own space better, as it were.

I find I need less EQ the better the pre. Things don't seem to pile up and smear together as much in a mix.
 
jeff0633 said:
Love the thread I started. and I have learned a lot. But there is still something bothering me. A coupk,e have made what seem to me to be a false analogy. My whole question, which I should have mentioned, was because I had read a review from a guy that had the M5 and an RNP, and he DID not say the difference was as between a race car and a Saturn. Believe me, if I got out of a Saturn and jumped into to a Nascar racer, the difference would be dramatic, and so shockingly different as to leave no doubt that there is a larg gulf between the two cars. That was my entire point in the form of a question. The reviewer said he would prefer the RNP in some instances. Much of what he said had to do with flavors. At no time did he say that the Avalon stood head and shoulders above the RNP, like a Nascar would above a Saturn. I wanted to know if there was a 900 dollar "gulf" between the RNP and the M5. To me, that would be relative to the masive difference were you to jump out of your Saturn and hop in a Race car and hit the gas. The difference would be *Monumental* between the two. $900 dollar is a lot of money (at least for me). 900 dollars represents a *gulf" But does the sound have the same gulf? The reviewer (and he wasn't intending to), revealed through his words that he had the overall impression that the two units didn't differ very much. each being better (to his ears anyway) for different purposes. He didn't have the reaction someone would have from jumping out of their Saturn and hopping into a Nascar. I think that review may have been right in this forum. Anyway, I just wanted to give the reason for my post.

Jeff
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Yes, but some people might get in that Nascar racer and say "sure, it's faster, but the ride is bumpy and it's really noisy in here...what, no A/C?...no stereo? screw it, I'll take the Saturn." The point is about finding something that suits your needs at a price you are willing to pay. You're also leaving out considerations of the mic being used, the room treatment for recording, and the quality of the people making the recording. In my noisy, untreated apartment, the Avalon may sound better than my current pres, but probably not "better enough" to justify the price. In a great studio, with great mics, great rooms, better cables, etc., that preamp is going to really shine. That being said, there may be situations where the RNP or even the ART Tube MP may be the preferred pre.
 
We don't need no freakin analogies. We need only economics: supply and demand. How many units at what price returns us the highest profit?--(units sold X profit margin per unit = total profit)--

Again, how many units at what price returns us the highest profit? That is the only question that needs to be answered. If Avalon could make more profit selling the M5 at $700, they would do so. If they could make more profit selling them at $2,000, they would do that as instead. Actual quality (not perceived quality) may or may not have a significant impact on the retail price of an item. The profit curve does. There are exceptions, but they are rare.
 
Dot said:
...snip...

My 2¢.
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any thoughts about Amek? and I noticed you didn't mention what's ss/tube although I'm figuring the high end has dropped that a long time ago.

Good post.
 
Mic pres make a difference, but I'm with Chessrock in that microphones themselves need to be looked at first. Having nice musical basically clean preamps that can handle everything well are a must, couple with mics that vary from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Not long ago nobody talked about this stuff. Engineers were seeking out mics in a big fuckin' way, like they are now. New preamps do add that extra flavor that again, I enjoy but think it comes further down the line. For those of us that are further down that line...go for it!

When I read posts by guys who have 4 different preamps and 3 mics I cringe. Then when somebody starts entertaining their thread about what the next preamp should be it drives me nuts...! Build the mic locker first, then start looking for boutique preamps. Start with a good mixer and run...run with it like a small boy in a field.

Just my $0.02 about the order of things anyhow. I enjoy high end myself but make music with an Onyx board pulling some duty too, and that music sounds fine.

War
 
I never said that mic selection isn't important. However, mic pre's definately can make a large difference in a sound. No mic will give you that Neve or API sound without a Neve or API style preamp. To many many engineers the mic pre makes a huge difference. If you can't hear that, then there is good news. The good news is that you won't feel the need to go get nice preamps, so money saved:) I just have problems with people thinking that if they get a mediocre mic and a cheap preamp that they can get the same stuff the big boys get. I don't know a single qualified and experienced engineer that does not pay attention to the WHOLE signal chain.
 
xstatic said:
I just have problems with people thinking that if they get a mediocre mic and a cheap preamp that they can get the same stuff the big boys get. I don't know a single qualified and experienced engineer that does not pay attention to the WHOLE signal chain.
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Exactly. And what really bugs me is seeing guys who spend gobs of money on their mic pres, and think they can get big money sound with their pawn shop special instruments in their untreated bedrooms with nothing but Auralex foam tacked to the walls. :D
 
Take the pre out of mic-pre and you have ....

Interesting stuff.
However, my take on all this, is that the mic is the central, more
critical component here. The charactericts of a mic are far more
variable than those of a "pre-amp" or any amp for that matter. The
function of an amp is to faithfully reproduce an amplified copy.
But it is not just amplitude. It is also phase. Depending of the disign,
you will probably have more of a difference in the phase, rather than
the amplitude of the input signal. So if you used cheap (and they are)
pre's with similar phase characteristics, you'd probably get a better
(more pleasing to the ear) sound than real expensive pre's that had a different phase curve.
Maybe, maybe not.
 
Interesting. Do you think you could describe these phase curves in further detail? What will my phase curves look like? Will they look like yours?
 
Curveball

Hey Chessrock and all,
I'm not that techie, but as an experiment, if you were listening
to a tone or a group of tones from speakers placed at typical
stero environment, and you changed the start time of your right
speaker by a slight amount of time, the ear will pick up that change,
and it will color the sound because you'd be experiencing additive
and substractive pahse changes. A pair of amps, if not matched will
do the same thing. One amp may be unphased at a particular freq. or
freq. range and it to will color the sound. But that's what it's all about.
There's laboratory perfect, and then there's the real world. I'm not
that into lab perfect, because my ears just aren't that good. But
obviously other people's are. I guess my point is that I think great
sound can be achieved regardless of technical perfection.
 
chessrock said:
Exactly. And what really bugs me is seeing guys who spend gobs of money on their mic pres, and think they can get big money sound with their pawn shop special instruments in their untreated bedrooms with nothing but Auralex foam tacked to the walls. :D
Click to expand...

Finally we agree on something;)
 
Hey I resemble that remark! :D
Except I wouldn't call my guitars "pawn shop special instruments"

It's all good!

chessrock said:
Exactly. And what really bugs me is seeing guys who spend gobs of money on their mic pres, and think they can get big money sound with their pawn shop special instruments in their untreated bedrooms with nothing but Auralex foam tacked to the walls. :D
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www.127riotstudio.net

I believe quality comes with a price. Its all about the budget. I own a few good micpre's and avalon makes the difference before the use of plug ins.

But i have made a presonus trak sound just as good as an avalon trak with the right ear/ plug in.

www.127riotstudio.net
 
127 Riot Studio said:
But i have made a presonus trak sound just as good as an avalon trak with the right ear/ plug in.
Click to expand...

What plugs are we talking about here?

Josh
 
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