Maybe you should read this

[noisedude]

i've got grade 8 in piano and flute and grade 7 drums. i teach guitar and play bass in a few bands. i'm also a singer and i'm working towards getting a piano diploma (letters after my name yeay). like i say, i enjoy it. i play stuff unrelated to exams and i don't live by my qualifications.

i do it instead of watching tv cos it's fun. maybe it comes more easily to me than some others, and maybe some others can laugh at my technique. but i enjoy it and work hard at it.

and it's not showing on here, but i do usually have a sense of humour too.

 

[mrface2112]

home recording doesn't mean "low budget"

it just means "recording at home". Martin Barre records at home. Geddy Lee records at home. They have significantly larger budgets than we do, but they're still home recordists. Home recording doesn't just mean "a dude with a 58 and a portastudio" anymore. it also means the dude with the 32 track neve, distressors and m149s.

that's what i LOVE about this forum.....you've got home recordists all across the board, all striving to make their recordings better. and if you've got ears that aren't damaged from years of gigging, you can hear the difference between an m149->avalon->apogee, versus V67->VTB1->delta1010. when someone asks about upgrading, they're gonna get all kinds of answers in the spectrum, and i like that. if i have $200 to spend now, but $400 would make my upgrade significantly better, i can be patient. i WANT to hear that info.

and along those lines, if you've spent years working with neves, apis, etc., anything less is gonna sound like crap to you. i can hear a large quality difference between my VTB1 and my mackie 24*4....i mean, the better the gear you deal with is gonna make the lesser stuff sound that much lesser to you. but to the newbie who's never gotten to use a neve, let alone at home, is prolly just gonna be thrilled they're recording at all on something that's not a cassette portastudio.

what i'm saying is that there's a complete difference in league here, and both sides can easily count as "home recordists". just like someone driving a mercedes is no less or no more "a driver" in the fundamental sense than someone driving a hyundai. budget does not dictate function or even skill or experience. i've seen trustfund babies with schoeps mics and all kinds of other gear and have no idea what XY or ORTF are, let alone the first step in proper mic placement.


<<the gap in sound quality between recordists that have high end gear and those that don't has never been smaller.>>

i'd agree with this on a fundamental point. it's a LOT cheaper for the home recordist to make a "tolerable" sounding recording than it has ever been. i'm THRILLED about this fact.


however, there's still no substitute for a nice sounding room, great gear and a skilled engineer running it all.


that's what home recordists need to understand, more than anything. that just b/c you can't hear the difference between a "pro" recording and yours (and by transitive property, between a B1 and a U87), doesn't mean that it's not there.

every tool has a place and we need to be mindful and respective of people and the tools available to them. the best part about this board is when someone steers someone away from, say, an alesis 3630 and guides them towards an RNC. or from a Nady mic and towards a used sennheiser. things like that.

but i think that something Fletcher said once rings truest to me, and i'll paraphrase it here: sure you can get some usable (even good) sounds from inexpensive gear, but the better gear makes your job easier just from the fact that it's better sounding gear in the first place.


things for the home recordist of all budgets are looking up. and for everyone except the mid-level studio owner, this is a good thing. of course, that also means that there are lot of clueless folks out there recording.


wade

 

[noisedude]

again i pretty much agree. my problem is not with people who come on and guide newbs, nor is it with people who want just to have high-end discussions. it's with the general lack of respect from some that causes well-meaning enthusiasts to turn away and beginners to be put off from starting.

i'm not into slagging off individuals but i think the current arguments between DJL (anti-SP) and loads of other people (anti-DJL) are so repetitive it's not worth it. the voices of reason and moderation such as Han are sucked into pointless debates over credibility and qualifications. why oh why? i've got good questions that need answering and i can add to funny threads. but let's not pretend that the mr microphone thread was a joke, it was the act of a bored and frustrated mind.

 

[mrface2112]

you've gotta learn to separate wheat from chaffe

if i sat here and read every post (let alone every argument) and took em all to heart, i'd spend my time pissed off. but i don't. i can't. i shake my head, chalk it up to lunacy and move on.

there's a LOT of good info here. but not everyone's gonna have the patience or tolerance to deal with occasional PMS that we have to deal with in order to get that info. desire breeds motivation, and i have a desire to learn.

granted, i'd rather not read the constant anti-PMI crusading anymore simply b/c alan's NOT posting here recommending his products anymore, and i feel there's no need for it. alan does (or did) bring some good points and experience, and i liked having him around to explain the workings of his products (and in case i ever needed support), but i'd rather not have to sift through him pimping his gear, too. there's a fine line and some folks have a hard time seeing it. if you weren't here when that was happening, you won't really understand. if i were a gear maker, i'd rather have the gear stand on its own rather than me trying to shove it down someone's throat--and several of alan's products do stand on their own, let alone for their price ranges.

that's not to say that DJL (or whoever's) opinion's not worthy--it is. he's said that the B1 is a "capable" mic in the sub-$100 category and given his bias against alan, that says something to me. his input on a variety of other mics is nice to have here. Fletcher comes across as an asshole at times, but i could care less b/c he's got great insights and knowledge and it's always drenched in sarcasm and a "take it or leave it" sentiment that i find extremely humorous. and his experience is with the gear we all drool over, and to him, a VTB1 WILL be shit. that's his frame of reference. and that's the point of these boards--you don't have to read, you don't have to get upset, you don't have to reply--you can choose to ignore.


.....and a lot of times, i just shake my head and move on.....


wade

 

[noisedude]

i'm not saying DJL's opinion on mics are not valuable, or fletcher's. and i'm game for a laugh and i ignore a lot of stuff. i agree you shake your head most of the time but i was concerned that people are getting turned back from the whole BBS because of one or two angry bees.

 

[rvdsm]

i'm not saying DJL's opinion on mics are not valuable, or fletcher's. and i'm game for a laugh and i ignore a lot of stuff. i agree you shake your head most of the time but i was concerned that people are getting turned back from the whole BBS because of one or two angry bees.

I guess there is no real way to defend either side of the coin. Nobody deserves to be treated like shit, but it happens. That's life. People would be better serving themselves by rolling with the punches rather than dwelling on attitude and what is fair. I think everyone wishes things were fair, but fair just never seems to be in the cards.

 

[zbert]

If you look up "home recording teacher" I'm sure no one will argue Harvey Gerst would be at the top of the list. He has a way of explaining a subject that newbies and veterns can understand. I find Fletcher extremely knowledgeable. There is a list of those who's post I can read and usually get something out of it. There are those mentioned here that I usually ignore. Take everything with a grain of salt and "get over it"
Yes, home recording is what we all do. Some have bigger budgets than others.
Have fun and don't take it all so personally.
Peace and Happy Holiday's

 

[mrface2112]

it's possible they are being "scared off". but our membership is what it is, and when you find the forum, you have to decide to take it or leave it, warts and all. can't make everyone happy all the time, ya know?

personally, i've always looked at this place as a place where someone who wants to get better and wants to approach that with an open mind (and an open check book helps!) can come and learn. a large number of home recordists can be plenty happy with a portastudio or roland box or something like that. some will be thrilled with behringers or mackies. some will be happy with ghosts. and some won't be happy unless (or until) they're running the same gear they were paying $100/hr their local studio was charging to record with.

these sorts of places help people like me steer away from the dumb, budget driven decisions and buy gear that tends to be pretty solid and do an ok job (read: inexpensive instead of cheap). and i'm EXTREMELY thankful to have people like Harvey and Fletcher here for their high-end, been doing this forever knowledge. I wish i could've interned under one of those guys, ya know? but i'm also glad to have guys like Chessrock, eeldip and Chessparov here, b/c they've been when i'm at now. their insights are more pertinent to my immediate needs, where as a Michael Jones' insights will be useful in another couple years when i'm looking to drop $1200 on a "decent" mic pre.

so as long as i can learn from the more experienced and pass along my meager findings to people who seem to be in the shoes i was wearing a year or two ago, this is a good place for me. it's only when the people asking questions don't want us to probe or expand their thinking (in order to help them) and they react negatively to it--that's when i take offense. and to be honest, i prolly don't want those people around anyway, b/c they'll likely be the ones asking the same questions 17 times, not liking the answers they got any of the times they asked, and being general doofuses.

and it seems kinda coincidental , but these are usually the same people wanting "professional cd quality" out of $100 worth of radio shack mics and a toob pre they got for $50 at banjomart and not understanding why that's not a reasonable goal. of course, i tend to feel that if you're clueless enough to think that you can get those results from that gear in the first place (and doubly so if you react negatively to someone pointing out "no, you can't"), you prolly ought not be recording anyway and your time (and money) would be better spent GOING to a studio than attempting it on your own.

let's face it, not everyone was cut out to be onthe console side of the glass, whatever that "console" may be.


wade

 

[rvdsm]

I'd like to reiterate a bit.

I think I'm more or less trying to offer an explanation of why thing like this occur. More or less playing devil's advocate - not trying to offend anyone.

 

[chessrock]

when someone comes on and asks what the best they can get for a certain price, that's because that's how much they have to spend or are willing to pay. *home*recording is by definition a hobby and those of us with limited incomes just want to have the most fun we can with the money we've got.

Alright. I can buy that.

i appreciate the knowledge and experience of people like chessrock

Glad I could be of some help.

the difference between an SP mic (and i deplore their marketing tactics as much as the next man) and one costing hundreds or thousands more is actually .... gasp .... very LITTLE.

No, it isn't. But we'll let it slide, because you politely asked not to be berated.

but, guess what, most people on here don't actually care! they want the best they want for their money . . .

Alright, this I have a few problems with. First you're saying you don't care. Next you're saying you want the best for your money. This isn't exactly jiving on so many levels. If you want the best for your money, then it's obvious you do care. And if you truly don't care, then why do even bother asking? ? ? ?

Do you honestly think there's going to be a meaningful difference, to you, between a $200 mic and a $300 mic if you can't even tell the difference between a $200 and a $1,000 mic?

yes, is would help if they read old threads

Yes, it would. Thank you.

but patience, as they say, is actually something you should have anyway if you're into sound engineering.

I thought you said this was just a hobby. Make up your mind.

it's fun. it's supposed to be fun.

I understand this. But research can be fun, also. I realize this is a dreaded word for some of you.

This sight is a virtual library of info, but some of you people would rather just walk up to the librarian and ask her to write your paper for you or read a book out loud for you. Do the research yourself. It's so much more rich and rewarding.

you may incur a bloody nose or find you have few friends.

Well, if I was the librarian or the teacher (in my above example) . . . and some punk came up to me and told me to write his term paper for him . . . and he got all snotty on me because I pointed him to the periodicals . . . I just might be tempted to haul off and punch him in the face, too. So it goes both ways.

 

[Scinx]

There is a newbies forum which is designed for newbies. The flames arent too hot there. If you go wandering aimlessly away, you may get screwed. If you dont have a clue, dont go wandering. Research first, and then you will have a little better idea for direction.
If someone answers your question to which mic is best under $8 with a $8.50 mic, you are free to ignore it. Amazing!

 

[Richard Monroe]

Well, I hope I'm not guilty of disrespecting people who haven't earned it, and I've gone waaaay out of my way to help some newbies on this board, up to the level of sending one of them a PA head. However, I also will occasionally give people a major league reality check, because I hope it will help them to set realistic goals. There are certain categories of posts that will draw that reality check out of me, and it will be direct.
1. "I just got a Behringer board and a Tascam 4-tracker. How much should I charge to record people?" Now they're out of home recording and into commercial work. They are not just indulging a fantasy, they are harming a clueless client who may actually believe this person has a clue.

2. "We've got a couple of SM58's and a Soundblaster. What else do we need to make CD quality recordings? We can spend about $300." I'm sorry, this person NEEDS a reality check. I agree they don't need to be insulted for asking the question. They do, however, need to be told that that is impossible.- because it is. I know how it feels. I've sunk over $20,000 into gear to record one project CD (with more, I hope, to follow). I asked the mastering engineer for his impression, and the response was- "considering your severe gear limitations, it's a remarkable first effort." I know he was trying to compliment me, but my first reaction was mostly dispair. Oh well, everybody needs a reality check, including me.

3. "Why, I can sing/play/whatever better than (fill in blank with pop superstar of choice)". Of course, a review of their MP3's reveal that they are not even particularly talented amateurs. Such people are usually angry people who wish to vent their frustration that some multimillion dollar performer (who has almost always worked harder and longer than they have, *and* has more talent), made the big bucks, and they didn't. People who make such misguided comparisons deserve the detailed analysis of their technique which I will be happy to provide.


Now when somebody asks, "what's the best X for less than $Y", I'll usually try to help them, and I don't usually try to sell them on something that is nowhere near their budget. And, I try to be respectful of everyone at least until they give me attitude for trying to help them. And- I almost never respond to an honest question with sarcasm. Unfortunately, there *are* some realities that you have to present:

1.There is no "best" mic, or pre, or guitar, or anything else. Tools cannot be selected if you do not know what the job is, and people will always have individualized needs and preferences.

2. Commercial quality recording costs money- a lot of it. Get over it.

3. A boatload of gear will not produce professional quality sound if the engineer is clueless.

4. If you market yourself as an AE with a professional studio, and you have no experience, no gear, and no money, you are a fraud, and what you're doing is likely to expose you to civil action, or in the case of rappers, you just get kneecapped.

Now for the good news- pretty good recordings can be made at home for a hell of a lot less money than it used to take. And- the information about how to do that is easier to find than it used to be. I try to remember every day how far I've come in 2 years, from clueless newbie to a self-produced commercial release. I also am reminded of all the things I haven't learned, how much more there is about which I have no clue. The people on this board have helped me every step of the way, including some with whom I often disagree, and a few that really are assholes. The last, and most important thing I've learned is when not to answer a question, either because I don't really know any of the answers, I'm not sure of all my facts, or I really have nothing useful to add to the discussion.-Richie

 

[sweetnubs]

If I wheeled my Studer into your bedroom that still would not help. Think about that, m'kay.

 

[rvdsm]

It's always the same argument around the holidays.

Hey, tis the season to be jolly!

 

[mrface2112]

richie nailed it

that post should be a sticky unto itself and required reading for everyone who signs up before they're allowed to post. they should have to sign a digital certificate saying "i swear i've read and understood everything in richie's post and promise not to be a dumbass".

seriously, though, here is someone who is grounded in reality, understands that there are some basic fundamentals and admits that there's a ton to learn (even past the ton he's already learned).

here is someone who's gone from a self-admittedly clueless newbie into someone who it seems always has something valuable to add to a discussion. someone who is happy to pass along their experiences and encourages someone else to just get out there and try something.

someone who wants to work at it. someone who wants to earn their learning through experimentation and doing. not someone who wants to have it spoon-fed or handed to them. someone who has a clear goal in mind and devotes themselves towards achieving it.

this is the person this sort of forum was designed for.

i know i'm never going to get abbey road in my basement. i know i'm never going to come anywhere near to close. but i strive to make the best recordings i can with the gear and skill i've got. i understand the limitations and like most here, there's a never-ending quest for "better". that comes through gear and practice, and mostly practice practice practice. better tools DO make the job easier to do well, but they're never going to do the job for you. a tool is just a tool--you still gotta have the hands to make it work and the skill to make it work well.

and truth of the matter is this, i make recordings that sound ok. definitely not great, but certainly not horrible. they're definitely better than what i could do a year or two ago, let alone 10 years ago (as that dork with a 58 and stuck in portastudio hell), and a year or two from now they'll be even better--hell, they're already better than they were a month ago, and they'll be even better next month when the next "upgrade" comes in.

at this point, they're getting to the point that i'm starting to not embarassed by them and am even considering putting together a collection of ideas for family and friends for next christmas. we'll see if it happens. it could be one of those "7 years in the making" projects, too, knowing how i am. "this could be just a little bit better....need to re-record all 12 of these tracks once the _insert whatever here_ arrives on tuesday......." i'm never satisfied.

and yes, some of my friends have liked my home recordings enough that they're happy to fork over $10 or 15 an hour for me to record THEM ("wow man, can you make me sound like that?"), and i'm happy to provide that service to them. i'm always upfront with what they'll be getting (and even more so with what they WON'T be getting) and they're always more than cool with that. simply put, it's a better recording than they'd be getting on their own.....b/c they know they'd be the guys here asking "i've got a radio shack mic and a soundblaster, how do i record a cd?" or else not doing it at all, and that'd be a shame.

IMO, as long as everyone's on the same page, understands what is reality and what is not, and are happy with the end result, it's all good. hell, i have a hard time asking for ANY money given my gear and experience and acoustic environment, but my time's gotta be worth something--and you certainly can't call $15/hour makin much of a profit. besides, if they're willing to pay for it, i'm willing to take their money and in this town, the next step up is the $35-50/hour range (which borders into "real" studio, or at least what passes for one around here), and that's far more than some of these folks want to spend just to capture their occasional cranial flatulence (which was my whole intention in the first place--to not have to spend $35/hr recording my occasional whims--only now it's turned into a bit of an obsession......does that sound familiar to anyone?).

and they (and i) definitely have this forum to thank.


wow, time for bed.....
wade

 

[lumbago]

I guess to some extent you're going to get responses here which don't answer the question the way you want. Free advice is useful, but (as an enquirer) you have to harvest the useful advice and throw away what is less useful.

When i was 14 (in 1975) I used to bounce tracks between two cassette decks. While it wasn't great quality, I learned a lot about low tech. recording. I learned about noise reduction and EQ.

My "kick drum" was a dynamic mic under a feather sofa pillow, hit from above with a drumstick. My snare was a telephone book. My hihat was a canister of rice. My mic was a handheld dynamic which came with the cassette recorder.

The rest of the tracks were piano and acoustic guitar - skills I have continued to hone over 30 years or so.

Later, when I had synths and access to a Fostex 4 track and a TR-606, and later, a Yamaha RX-15 drum machine, I worked harder on arrangements and structure.

Even with low cost gear, the skills can still be honed, and you can still have fun - writing, arranging, playing and refining the sounds.

So I think everyone should try to observe the budgets, unless an absolute disaster is immminent.

Anyone can be a gear snob - which is ultimately futile. Clever use of limited gear is more empowering that average use of expensive gear.

Everyone should respect the low cost solutions as still being desirable.

I'll have the $30 Neumann, the $40 Neve, and the $50 Urei, the 425 SSL, the $5 Lexicon, the $25 Steinway, and the $2 Oberheim thanks. Gift wrapped.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Mr. face! Thank you for your kind words. Well, after almost 2500 posts, within about a month I'll be able to post my one and only genuine SPAM on this board. Technical issues are forcing the remastering of one of 13 songs (just *1*!!!-damn), which is being done today. A project that was heavily influenced by Homerecording.com., "Reunion" features myself on acoustic and electric guitars and vocals, Rimshot on drums, Harpie on backing vox and lap harp. Audrey White, professor of music at the New England Conservatory on violin and viola. More backing vocals by Maureen Fleming, independant recording artist from San Diego, and Carolyn Johnston, a rocket scientist (no shit) from Boulder Colorado. Fretless bass by Bill Van Pelt from Binghamton, N.Y., acoustic, electric, and classical guitar by Christopher Woitach from Portland, Oregon. Mixing by Littledog, mastering by Sjoko. How's that for a Homerec. project?
I had engineering consulting from the beginning, by Aidas Kupcinskas from the Tom Snyder group, who helped with plans for room treatment, assisted with a couple of sticky mic placement issues (I'm moderately to severely hearing impaired), and helped with the upload to Pro Tools format. I've been listening to and mixing dry tracks for a year now, and I finally have ambience and EQ! Woohoo!
In the end, I'm not looking to be a superstar, just to cut my losses in building the coolest toy I have ever owned- an acoustic playroom. I'm no engineer, and a lot of it is still voodoo to me, like the phase reversal in mid side mic'ing (wire the cable backwards, trust me). But what the hell? I got to renew my aquaintances with the finest musicians I've ever been lucky enough to play with, finally get some closure with the greatest lost love of my life (Mo Fleming), and hear my songs done in ways I never could have imagined. Not only that, I've had the pure joy (LOL) of dealing with the Harry Fox Agency, and figuring out work for hire agreements, mechanical royalties and residuals, and copyright law. Oh boy... So if I've written anything that has helped you, buy 2 copies and send one to your mother. One of the most eclectic CD's ever recorded by a single small set of personnel, we have run the gamut from Rennaissance harp ballad to circa 1981 jock rock. Whatever it is, "Reunion" isn't mood music, unless you have multiple personalities. I hope the dedication says it all-

I dedicate this album to my dear friend, Maureen Fleming, who taught me that dreams don't happen to you. You have to make them happen.- and to my beloved wife Susan, who makes dreams happen.-Richie

 

[tdukex]

Very cool, Richie. I'll take one. Where do I send the check?

 

[chessrock]

Damn this thread has taken some bizarre twists. Where's it gonna' go next?

 

[Han]

Great thread, very great!

I'll be back.

BTW, you know what's really stupid? Buying a Neumann M50 and plugging it into an Eurodesk.