'MAKING IT BIG' or not?

[Nandoram]

Your music will be heard if it's good. You can do things on your own to get people to listen to your music. I have released two free albums. You can promote them on websites where there can be like minds, who may like your music.

You want to be heard by the masses but (from the way you're talking), I doubt that you make music that the masses will like.

This being said, you have to target your audience. If you are truly good and "inspiring", people will listen to you. Not because your music will fall from thin air because of it's heavenly quality .. but because of the people who do like it, will tell others. In underground music scenes, you become "known" by the people from that scene because of word of mouth. That would be the product of good music but not marketable.

The fact is, you're not going to be heard by the "masses". But if you pay attention to how you're "marketing" your great music, you can have people who actually care, listening to it.

What you want exactly doesn't exist. Plus, it doesn't make sense to exist really.

It's like me getting independent romance films shoved down my throat. I dont like romance films but in order for the independent film maker to be seen by the masses, they have to shove it down everyones throat.

If you want to be heard by the masses, get on a major label.

If you want to be respected by your peers and music lovers, play music because you love it, with disregard to public appreciation.

If these options dont work for you, play the bugle in a regionally acclaimed marching band.

Dude:
You have released two free albums? Where are they? I checked your website, and they are not there.

I heard your two snippets, and they sounded very good. They are instrumental music cues.... designed for film or television.

But you are not qualified to tell me my music wouldn't appeal to the masses.

But let's get specific. Maybe you think the masses is everyone on the planet? Everyone buying the latest JONAS BROS or HANNAH MONTANA cd? No, I'm not after everyone on the planet. I am targeting a specific audience: folks who enjoy melodic rock music. I've had MANY people tell me that they love my music... people in their 50s, all the way down to 17-18 year olds. But I realize I need help getting to the next level... getting out there and building more of an awareness.

What I want to exist makes all the sense in the world. The way the record companies do business NOW doesn't make sense. It's why everything is in disarray. You know... their sole objective is to market to the "teenies" and to forget the "teenies" when they grow up. There is nothing wrong with continuing to market music to people who have grown up... have disposable income, and who still enjoy the melodic rock music of the 60s, 70s, 80s... and today.

A major label doesn't make sense for me, because of their "teenie" focus. You are young enough (20?) to still take part in that, so maybe that will work for you. I had to start my own company because I'm a lot older, and record companies wouldn't take a chance on me because of that.

I don't create music for the respect of other musicians. I would like other musicians to enjoy my music (and personally know many who do), and ... yes... I know some that don't like my music. No problem there. I'm creating my music for me and the others who like melodic rock music... and can't find enough of it. I believe it's possible to find enough of these folks that will enable me to keep creating more music... and that can possibly help me pay off my house in the meantime!

 

[Erockrazor]

Dude:
You have released two free albums? Where are they? I checked your website, and they are not there.

Here's the two albums.

Asleep at a Wake-Metrognome (acoustic pop rock)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?b2ewqxqmbnj

Atlas at Least-The Electric Foodgun (quirky, odd, pop punk)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmmgzzznqdt

That website in my signature is for myself as a composer. Not for my bands.

I heard your two snippets, and they sounded very good. They are instrumental music cues.... designed for film or television.

Thank you! They are indeed designed for film and tv. I'd rather consider them my composition's and not my songwriting.

But you are not qualified to tell me my music wouldn't appeal to the masses.

No, I definitely am not. I'm sorry if it came out like that. I believe a wide variety of music can actually appeal to the masses but I thought we were really discussing being heard by the masses.

But let's get specific. Maybe you think the masses is everyone on the planet? Everyone buying the latest JONAS BROS or HANNAH MONTANA cd? No, I'm not after everyone on the planet.

Unfortunately, that is what I meant. "Everyone on the planet" is exactly what I think of when I hear the "masses". That's where I think I was misunderstood. I am not telling you that you cannot appeal to the masses but I am saying that you will (likely) not be heard by (my interpretation of) the masses unless on a major label.

I am targeting a specific audience: folks who enjoy melodic rock music. I've had MANY people tell me that they love my music... people in their 50s, all the way down to 17-18 year olds. But I realize I need help getting to the next level... getting out there and building more of an awareness.

This is exactly what I am talking about! This is completely possible. If you are good and can get the ball rolling, you WILL be heard! This is your goal right? This is a great thing about indie labels. Independent labels, although not highly influential commercially, they are GREAT for people like you. They are the junction for people with like minds, where you can find people like you, making music with similar interests, and following them are in this case "the masses" that will listen to your music. This is where niches are formed.

I think you guys want to be heard in this way. Which I think is the hope that many of us have in common, to be heard by people that will like your music and tell other people that your music rocks!

What I want to exist makes all the sense in the world. The way the record companies do business NOW doesn't make sense. It's why everything is in disarray. You know... their sole objective is to market to the "teenies" and to forget the "teenies" when they grow up. There is nothing wrong with continuing to market music to people who have grown up... have disposable income, and who still enjoy the melodic rock music of the 60s, 70s, 80s... and today.

The labels you're talking about are extremely influential in pop culture and they DO NOT make sense. You're completely right. But that is exactly where smaller record labels come into play. It's a stepping stone which doesn't always finish on a major label. My electric band could never end up on a major label, we dont have high pop appeal. That's okay! Actually, I don't give a shit if anyone cares about my music just because I love it as much as I do. But I give a shit if people like my film and tv compositions, since that is my livelihood and of course I have my own reasons for that. I think I'm digressing now but I just want to say, there IS indeed exactly what you guys want. It's not going to just happen though. There are niches for artists like YOU and YOU and YOU.

A major label doesn't make sense for me, because of their "teenie" focus. You are young enough (20?) to still take part in that, so maybe that will work for you. I had to start my own company because I'm a lot older, and record companies wouldn't take a chance on me because of that.

A major label doesn't give two shits whether the music is good or not. It is a commercial game. The artists don't even make a respectable portion of the money. It's truly despicable what the business really is. That's why we have Independent music! WOOHOO! I actually thought that was a common interest here. DIY, indie music, record yourself, and market on your own. We dont have time for the fake side of music (ie. major labels ((but dont get me wrong, there are REAL musicians on the "fake" side)))

I don't create music for the respect of other musicians. I would like other musicians to enjoy my music (and personally know many who do), and ... yes... I know some that don't like my music. No problem there. I'm creating my music for me and the others who like melodic rock music... and can't find enough of it. I believe it's possible to find enough of these folks that will enable me to keep creating more music... and that can possibly help me pay off my house in the meantime!

And that is exactly why I have the utmost respect for you. Music for me is creativity and satisfaction. If anyone enjoys my music, great. If not, I'll still be in my basement scratching my head, trying to write something that stimulates ME!


And Nandoram, I'd love to hear your music. I'm not trying to approach this virtual debate with any hostility. But I am passionate about my opinions on DIY attitude. I wish you all the luck in music (and in life for that matter). And I'm 21! So if youre ever in Jersey maybe I can treat you a drink!

Thanks for listening, I like reading what you all have to say. Eric

 

[Nandoram]

Here's the two albums.

Asleep at a Wake-Metrognome (acoustic pop rock)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?b2ewqxqmbnj

Atlas at Least-The Electric Foodgun (quirky, odd, pop punk)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmmgzzznqdt

That website in my signature is for myself as a composer. Not for my bands.

Great, Erock... thanks for the links. You really should have those links on your signature... I would have checked them out by now! I'll definitely hear them.

Thank you! They are indeed designed for film and tv. I'd rather consider them my composition's and not my songwriting.

Your compositions seemed really well done, and accomplished. I enjoyed the WWF one... I could almost see those huge guys walking out to the stage.

No, I definitely am not. I'm sorry if it came out like that. I believe a wide variety of music can actually appeal to the masses but I thought we were really discussing being heard by the masses.

Unfortunately, that is what I meant. "Everyone on the planet" is exactly what I think of when I hear the "masses". That's where I think I was misunderstood. I am not telling you that you cannot appeal to the masses but I am saying that you will (likely) not be heard by (my interpretation of) the masses unless on a major label.

Well, the major labels indeed have the deepest penetration into the marketplace, but that doesn't mean some upstart company can't come in and replace them by getting a killer distribution deal with large brick/mortar stores like WAL MART, BEST BUY, and so forth.

The net has changed things, though. Look at Kazaa, Napster, Morpheus, the Pirate Bay... they were visited by and used by what I would consider to be THE MASSES (in this definition, "a lotta folks"), and this distribution scheme had nothing to do with record labels. Well, I suppose if the record labels hadn't at least manufactured the CDs, they wouldn't have existed. But the lines have been drawn, and SOMETHING has to happen. It's exciting as hell seeing all this stuff come down. The OLD GUARD is being swept away, and the music industry is changing literally in front of our eyes.

I like reading threads about this kind of stuff, too. I'm just throwing out ideas to try to understand and maybe predict how this stuff is going to happen. I was very interested in seeing NIN and even RADIOHEAD.... how their "free music" experiments came about, and how they were received. Is it just me, or has any band actually put out GREAT music with these experiments, or have they put out sub-par "non-commercial" music like NIN did? If so, is this going to have a negative effect on the whole idea of free music? Will people think it's only free 'cause it's not as good as the band's best albums? Because the band isn't willing yet to give up the "good stuff" for free?

This is exactly what I am talking about! This is completely possible. If you are good and can get the ball rolling, you WILL be heard! This is your goal right? This is a great thing about indie labels. Independent labels, although not highly influential commercially, they are GREAT for people like you. They are the junction for people with like minds, where you can find people like you, making music with similar interests, and following them are in this case "the masses" that will listen to your music. This is where niches are formed.

I think you guys want to be heard in this way. Which I think is the hope that many of us have in common, to be heard by people that will like your music and tell other people that your music rocks!

I agree you have to have some plan of attack, and you have to point yourself in the right direction. I'm definitely not going to take out banner ads on hannamontana.com!

The labels you're talking about are extremely influential in pop culture and they DO NOT make sense. You're completely right. But that is exactly where smaller record labels come into play. It's a stepping stone which doesn't always finish on a major label. My electric band could never end up on a major label, we dont have high pop appeal. That's okay! Actually, I don't give a shit if anyone cares about my music just because I love it as much as I do. But I give a shit if people like my film and tv compositions, since that is my livelihood and of course I have my own reasons for that. I think I'm digressing now but I just want to say, there IS indeed exactly what you guys want. It's not going to just happen though. There are niches for artists like YOU and YOU and YOU.

Well put.

A major label doesn't give two shits whether the music is good or not. It is a commercial game. The artists don't even make a respectable portion of the money. It's truly despicable what the business really is. That's why we have Independent music! WOOHOO! I actually thought that was a common interest here. DIY, indie music, record yourself, and market on your own. We dont have time for the fake side of music (ie. major labels ((but dont get me wrong, there are REAL musicians on the "fake" side)))

Wouldn't it be nice, though, to have a major that did place more emphasis on good music? They could learn a few things from the indies. Because then the indie real estate would belong to them. And they could keep the customers they lose when they 'grow up' and stop buying music because they are not being marketed to.

And that is exactly why I have the utmost respect for you. Music for me is creativity and satisfaction. If anyone enjoys my music, great. If not, I'll still be in my basement scratching my head, trying to write something that stimulates ME!

We have that in common. It's something we have to do. But since I have to pay my mortgage also (and you will too, someday (if not already)), it's not a bad idea to try to do that with your music, too!

And Nandoram, I'd love to hear your music. I'm not trying to approach this virtual debate with any hostility. But I am passionate about my opinions on DIY attitude. I wish you all the luck in music (and in life for that matter). And I'm 21! So if youre ever in Jersey maybe I can treat you a drink!

Thanks for listening, I like reading what you all have to say. Eric

PM me your mailing address, and I'll send you some comp copies. Maybe you could send me some hard copies of the stuff you have on your websites, as well!

Thanks...

 

[Erockrazor]

You make great points. My last message with the quotes was extremely exhausting, now I'm on my girlfriends keyboard which I'm not so elegant with. Wouldn't want to wake sleeping beauty, so I'll just touch on a few thoughts that came up while I read your post.

I do believe that independent labels actually have releases in best buy and wal-mart. But even then, this is just highly marketable music. It's only on that level because it has been so marketable. That's something that will be really difficult to change. These places run on money not art.

The internet is amazing in many ways. I have a reference, which I'm not sure is completely true .. but I heard it on the streets. Panic at the Disco supposedly built so much of an internet following, that they had a music video on mtv before actually playing a show. This (if true) really shows the "masses" that can be reached over the internet.

I don't know about NIN free releases but as far as Radiohead's music, I thought it was very comparable to their past albums. I didn't think there was any slacking on their part. I think their idea was that if you can't keep them from downloading, might as well give them that freedom, not an excuse to release a lower focused album.

With me, I did exactly that just for the fact that all these people will hear it, who would have otherwise never heard it. I haven't reached any of the masses. Both albums combined I have had about 200 people own them, whether they listen or not, who knows. But every time I see the downloads go up, I still smile a little.

Thanks for all the compliments, hope you like the albums.

Check your PM's. Eric

 

[Nandoram]

You make great points. My last message with the quotes was extremely exhausting, now I'm on my girlfriends keyboard which I'm not so elegant with. Wouldn't want to wake sleeping beauty, so I'll just touch on a few thoughts that came up while I read your post.

Saturday night, and we're talking shop. Isn't that funny? That says good things about how important this stuff is to us, doesn't it? After this, I'm gonna fire up the preamp and the 003... and write a rock song.

I do believe that independent labels actually have releases in best buy and wal-mart. But even then, this is just highly marketable music. It's only on that level because it has been so marketable. That's something that will be really difficult to change. These places run on money not art.

I agree that most of what they have is the commercial stuff. They've gotta pay the bills. Most of the commercial stuff I see I don't buy or listen to. Not into hip-hop, rap, or R&B. I was pleased to see new Mutt Lange stuff (NICKELBACK) at Wal Mart, and of course the new AC/DC stuff... they also recently put out a great Journey triple package (new disc, re-recorded hits on disc two, and a DVD on the third)... that sold phenomenally well... that's the kind of stuff that I like. But I'll go through the bins now and again, and sometimes I'll find some cool stuff that I haven't seen in a while that I may not have (Hendrix, Cream, Dokken)... yes, I'm dating myself. But then again, I love melodic rock music. They also have a section where they'll sell the Millenium collections (compilations), and other $5.99 collections of classic albums (like old AC/DC) and such. I think if an independent musician has a good, catchy release... and they somehow get the word out (or get some kind of buzz going)... they can sell a decent amount of copies there. Wal Mart is now the number one music retailer in the country.

The internet is amazing in many ways. I have a reference, which I'm not sure is completely true .. but I heard it on the streets. Panic at the Disco supposedly built so much of an internet following, that they had a music video on mtv before actually playing a show. This (if true) really shows the "masses" that can be reached over the internet.

There is hope!

I don't know about NIN free releases but as far as Radiohead's music, I thought it was very comparable to their past albums. I didn't think there was any slacking on their part. I think their idea was that if you can't keep them from downloading, might as well give them that freedom, not an excuse to release a lower focused album.

I'm not familiar with RADIOHEAD's music, but I read about them putting out the CD for free on their website. Ballsy move, and I admired them for it.

I'm not a fan of NIN, but my brother told me he put out GHOSTS (I-IV), which was an esoteric bunch of songs (36). From a news website, "Speaking of the release and the artwork, Reznor explained: “It’s the result of working from a visual perspective – coating imagined locations and scenarios with sound and texture; a soundtrack for daydreams.”

My brother said it was bizarre music... not so much like his most popular albums. I got on the NIN website, and he's making his next album also available for free... it's called THE SLIP. I wonder if this is better material than the previous release. Ballsy stuff.

But the thing is, these guys are already established. They have a following ALREADY, so they are far ahead of the game.

With me, I did exactly that just for the fact that all these people will hear it, who would have otherwise never heard it. I haven't reached any of the masses. Both albums combined I have had about 200 people own them, whether they listen or not, who knows. But every time I see the downloads go up, I still smile a little.

Thanks for all the compliments, hope you like the albums.

Check your PM's. Eric

I think it's fantastic you making your albums available just like RADIOHEAD and NIN. I clicked on your links... and it appears I have to create a profile on Mediafire to download them. And the first thing I see is that boring Mediafire page. Presentation is everything. Just trying to give you some suggestions... but do you think you could tweak the presentation a bit? I mean, create a full-on website (with cool images to rival those of the RADIOHEAD and NIN websites). An ad-supported website, where you make money every time somebody gets on the site and downloads your music. You talk to BEST BUY, WALMART, or whoever buys ads... and get them to pay you per hit. Place banner ads all over that people can click on. On the site, you have a full on bio... a message board, a page talking about how the albums were created... maybe you even manufacture and sell some copies of your music for those purists who need to have a "real" copy of it. Have you done this? Replicated your releases? Or are they only available digitally? I haven't heard your music yet, but imagine with this type of presentation, if you get 1,000,000 downloads... because a buzz has started about your music (which you have branded with recognizable images on the site, and with smooth photos of yourself). I mean, imagine Dave McKean or somebody like that doing your digital illustrations... you could really stand out.

I know all of this would cost money, but you've got the product... you are halfway there already! Just throwing ideas out.

 

[Erockrazor]

Hey Fernando,

The links I posted are one click's. "click here to download file". I dont think any registration is required. If there is, I've been ignorant to it this whole time. Thanks for checking it out.

We have myspaces, which is kind of like a good representation of who we are.

www.myspace.com/atlasatleast
www.myspace.com/asleepatawake1

We try and do things on the cheap, super cheap. So right now, I don't think we'd be willing to afford websites for the bands. But I can make those links easier to download. Thanks for your help, every little thing counts in this game.

Eric

 

[DrewPeterson7]

SOMETHING ELSE... WOULD LIKE FEEDBACK ON THIS...

Now, the comics industry also has a non-returnable policy. If you are a retailer, and you order comics/books/toys/videos from the distributor... then what you order is non-returnable. So whatever they order they are stuck with. I don't think this is the case with the current music industry. If WAL MART doesn't sell 20,000 of your albums... then they can return them to the distributor, who in turn returns it to you. Now.. what would happen if someone created a music distribution system whereby the products were NON-RETURNABLE? Would this be a boon for the record labels (who when they get their orders, would know EXACTLY how many copies were sold)? Would it be bad for the consumer who would not find stuff he/she wants when they hit the record stores because the owner doesnt want to take a chance on something?

This. Picture this from the perspective of the piurchasing manager for a major record store. Anything that he purchases that is NOT sold is a guaranteed loss. So, whereas under the current paradigm he can afford to take chances on less accessable bands because if they don't move then they can be returned to the distriibutor, in this paradigm if he makes a bad call and purchases something for the store that the customers won't respond to, then he just earned a loss equal to the number of CD's that don't sell (which in turn represent an opportunity cost as they take up shelf space that could be filled with CD's that turn over faster.

Given this, making CD stocks nonreturnable would actually have the inverse effect, where since every single CD purchased is a sunk cost, record stores would have a strong incentive to not only not stock CDs that they aren't sure would sell, but also stock only those CDs they expect to be able to turn over rapidly. If a CD is paid for up front as a sunk cost, then they lose money on financing for every day it sits there unsold. So, if the industry worked this way, we'd see smaller CD stores stocking a lot of the latest Britney, Rhianna, and Jonas Brothers CDs, and not much else.

I'm not familiar enough with the comics industry to really do more than speculate, but I suspect the reason that this works for the comics industry where it wouldn't for the music is that there are no major non-consumption distribution networks for comic books. If you want to see the latest comic book, you have to buy it. If you want to hear the latest hit single, you can buy it, OR you can turn on the radio and listen for a bit. It's a different sort of commodity - music has a much broader pop culture exposure (how many major cultural networks have 24-hour comic book programming, like MTV and VH1 do for music?) and is consumed in different manners than comic books are. CDs are rarely considered collectables; rather, they're more a vehicle and a "right" to have the experience of listening to a song or an album whenever you want, and they exist as something more than the media on which they're printed. Comics ARE the media in which they're printed. They're very different commodities.

FWIW, on your first point, I'm probably going to both sell CDs and release my album as a free MP3 download on my site wen I finish it, but I'm also not really trying to "make it big."