lots of action...

[SLicata]

hey everyone...i know there was a recent post on truss rod adjustments, my question is similar. i have a student who owns a real cheapo guitar. everytime i teach her i often feel bad at how the instrument she plays is holding her back from full potential. the problem is that the guitar neck is severly bent and the action is really high. im not much of a fix-it with guitars, but i feel obligated to get the guitar in reasonable playing condition. everything just sounds terribly out of tune when she plays, be it chords or a simple melody. is there any way i can make an adjustment to the guitar without going full on "set-up" to make it easier for her to play ? im really in no situation to even be replacing strings here, im just curious if its possible to get the neck straighter, action lower, and guitar in tune, with a quick fix? id appreciate the help, it will make my job much easier, and ill stop cringing everytime she plays . i appreciate any help you can offer, and im sure she would too...

 

[punkin]

Without the kid present, have a side conversation with the parent(s). Just tell them the same way you've mentioned it here.

No need to put the parent under pressure in front of the kid and at the same time, not to further squash the kid by letting him/her know that she's got a crappy instrument.

 

[Dani Pace]

Most of the time the action of a guitar can be improved with a two step process. First the truss rod adjustment to eliminate the bow (actually most of it, a very slight bow is acceptable and wil prevent some fret buzz or rattle.) The second thing to do is lower the bridge. On most guitars (especially electrics) these are fast and fairly simple adjustments. If all fails another guitar may be needed in order for your student to make any real progress. If the action can't be improved, the guitar might could be used for slide.

 

[IronFlippy]

My teacher told me straight up that my instrument sucks, but maybe that's because I'm in college. My parents helped me fund for a new one and all is good now. If she's kind of young, go tell the parents. If they think she's putting in the effort outside of lessons and really wants to play, then they can get her a new instrument. It will make things better for everyone (except the parent's wallet).

 

[ermghoti]

is there any way i can make an adjustment to the guitar without going full on "set-up" to make it easier for her to play ?

Any adjustment to the guitar is a set-up. Is it an electric or acoustic? What kind of bridge? When you say the neck is bent, do you mean forward bow, or side to side? is it bent a couple mm, or a quarter-inch?

I'm going to sound like a bit of a jerk, but I strongly believe guitar maintenance is one of the fundamentals that should be part of guitar lessons. You really should know the answer to this question before you take on students, IMO.

Probably the best move is like punkin said, talk the parents into getting the thing set-up. Breaking a truss rod would not be a good career move for you.

 

[Sirnothingness]

Pay her to take up the tuba.

 

[punkin]

E-guitar or acoustic? What is she playin' now? Do you think it can be service by a pro to play right? How old is she?

 

[gbdweller]

All of the questions asked in this thread are valid. It's near impossible to offer valid advise without some more info, and then the advise given would have to be very vague (adjust the truss rod/lower the bridge) without actually seeing the guitar. If set up is the issue, you would probably be able to get the guitar to the point where it is at least playable. I teach on the side and there is nothing more frustrating to the student (and teacher ) than the struggles associated with a cheap, poorly set up instrument. I have seen students want to quit that would have otherwise flourished.

Talking to the parents on the side is a great piece of advise. Don't pressure them in front of the student, but let them know that the money it takes to set up a guitar ($35-75 depending on where you live and the shop) is money well spent if you consider the money spent on lessons, or wasted on lessons if the student gives up due to a piece of crap instrument. A good luthier will also be honest with them if the guitar is just not worth the cabbage to get playable again.

 

[SLicata]

Any adjustment to the guitar is a set-up. Is it an electric or acoustic? What kind of bridge? When you say the neck is bent, do you mean forward bow, or side to side? is it bent a couple mm, or a quarter-inch?

I'm going to sound like a bit of a jerk, but I strongly believe guitar maintenance is one of the fundamentals that should be part of guitar lessons. You really should know the answer to this question before you take on students, IMO.

Probably the best move is like punkin said, talk the parents into getting the thing set-up. Breaking a truss rod would not be a good career move for you.

The guitar in question is an Harmony electric, probably from Sears or Walmart. The neck is bent forwards, probably at least a quarter inch. I don't remember the type of bridge, probably similar to a cheap strat.

There is no need to come off like a jerk. If you must know I do my job in a professional manner. Truth be told, I teach mainly in music stores, who can repair all of my students guitars for me. Seeing as how guitar maintenance IS a part of what I teach, I am the one who sees the problems, and tells them to get it fixed by the techs, unless it is so minor I can take care of it myself without them having to spend the money.

Unfortunately, this is a private student, and I teach her in home. Meaning I can't tell her "Go upstairs and drop your guitar off, tell them you need a set-up". I feel unless I want them to go out of their way to spend money to fix such an inexpensive instrument, the least I can do as her teacher is make an effort to make it play a little bit better. Unfortunately, I am only inclined to do minor repairs, and to me, adjusting a truss rod is not minor. I have a personal tech who cures all my guitar-related ailments, so repairs like this are out of my league.

If the consensus on this board is that, considering this may be out of my league, I should simply consult the parent and leave it in their hands, I will do so. I have no intentions of ruining a students guitar. However, if there so happen to be a few steps that could help me out, and in turn, possibly fix the guitars problems without a major issue, please do share.

That is all I ask...

 

[gbdweller]

As I mentioned in a previous post, this will be a very vague and generic set of instructions that may make the guitar at least playable. You will need a capo, 6" steel rule, feeler gauges and whatever tools the truss rod and bridge require for adjustment. All measurements should be made in the 'playing' position.

1. Install the capo, fret the last fret and measure the distance between the bottom of strings 1 and 6 and the top of the 7th fret with you feeler gauge. You'll be shooting for somewhere around .010-.012". This is a basic relief measurement that will be usable. Turn the truss rod in small increments to reach that figure. 1/8-1/4 of a turn at a time until you reach that measurement. Clockwise straightens a neck with too much relief. The rod should turn freely with moderate effort. If you have to use a lot of effort, stop before you break the truss rod, and give the guitar back. You would be done at that point. If the rod turned and you got your measurement go to the next step.

2. Remove the capo and play the guitar. If it's playable you could probably stop. If the action is still high, you'll have to lower the bridge or individual saddles to where the guitar is playable. I hesitate to give measurements because if the frets and nut are poor, the lower the action and straighter the neck, the more pronounced the fret and nut problems could become. At the 12th fret, measure between the top of the fret and the bottom of the 1st and 6th string with the steel rule. Try starting with 5/64" at the low E and 3/64" at the high E and adjust up or down from there until the guitar plays as good as you think you can get it to play. You'll probably have to raise the heights on that particular guitar to make it playable, but maybe not.

3. Set your intonation and pickup heights and your done.


All of the above was very generic and vague to help make the guitar playable. I hope it helps you.

 

[goldtopchas]

It's really not that hard to do, and by the sound of it, you can't make it any worse. I've adjusted dozens of "ski slope" necks without breaking a truss rod. Some of them I really had to crank the crap out of.

Take a look down the neck from the head stock end. What you need to see is a relatively straight fretboard(eye it at the edge of the frets where they catch the light). If it's as bad as you describe, you'll probably need to give it as much as a full turn or two. When you put the wrench on the truss rod nut they are usually stuck or painted shut. Try loosening it slightly first to break it loose. Keep tightening until you feel you've got it as straight as you can.

If you removed a bunch of relief, you might need to raise the bridge slightly if the action gets too low.( This would actually be a good sign at this point)
If the action is decent but you have buzzing on the first few frets, you'll need to back it off a little.

Most times when you straighten these boomarang necks, they'll hump at the 8th - 12th fret. All you can do is get it as straight as poss. and start raising the action till it's reasonbly playable. Either way you can certainly make it a better playing instrument than it is now. If it's out of adjustment that bad, it won't hurt a thing to try...especially being that it's a cheapy.

It might be good to explain the situation to the parents first. They will probably be thankful that your not trying to get them to invest good $$$$ on a crap instrument. And who knows maybe they'll just spring for a new axe for their budding virtuoso. good luck!!!

 

[ermghoti]

There is no need to come off like a jerk. If you must know I do my job in a professional manner. Truth be told, I teach mainly in music stores, who can repair all of my students guitars for me. Seeing as how guitar maintenance IS a part of what I teach, I am the one who sees the problems, and tells them to get it fixed by the techs, unless it is so minor I can take care of it myself without them having to spend the money.

Actually, I rewrote that section a couple times trying to dejerk it to the extent that I could, and realized it was going to come off harsher than I wanted, hence the disclaimer.

I, and most of the people I know, consider a setup, including a little truss rod twisting, to be basic maintenance, not even reaching the level of "repair." If you don't, that's fine. Maybe my circle of contacts are more adventurous than most.

To gbdweller's advice, I would add that if you have given the truss rod a quarter turn, leave it over night, the wood won't react instantly to a big adjustment.

 

[darrvid]

Truthfully, as a guitar instructor I think it would be worth your time to learn how to do a setup like this. Have you broken a guitar in the past? It's not a steep learning curve, just requires a few types of screwdrivers. If you're concerned about it being anothers instrument, learn on your own first. It's pretty difficult to break a guitar on accident doing the adjustments required for this type of setup (although with a cheapie like that, who knows, talk to the parents first). Oh yeah, and you mentioned not being in a place to change the strings... have the strings been changed ever? That'd be an essential step if they havent.

This is all meant in a nonjerkish way, just encouraging you to get a bit intimate with your axe

 

[SLicata]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help and advice. I'll keep you posted on how things turn out....