"Lost and Found" - comments welcome.

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alibish

alibish

Hotrod Cadet
Hi all

I've got a new song here:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/brr/singles

It's called "Lost and Found".

I'd be very grateful for any and all comments on the writing, performance, arrangement, mixing, etc.

I'm having real problems mixing this one, and I've got to the point where I'm just making it worse. Any ideas would be very helpful.

Cheers

AB
 
Wow, this is nice! What are you unhappy with? And where did you get those strings?Vocals are very nice.


Twist
 
Hi Twist

Thank you very much for the kind comment!

Here are the things I'm struggling with:

EQ on the violins (I think it might be too nasal and boxy just now)

The bass is a bit messy

I think I might have deadened the piano sound too much

The guitar is a bit brittle

Vocal levels - too quiet?

Breathy pad sound on the right hand side on the last verse and chorus - I liked the idea, but it's ended up just sounding like hiss!

Overall clarity - it's not bad, but the different parts are still "fighting" for space

Apart from that I love it! ;)

To be honest I am quite happy with the track. But I do feel it needs some final tidying up. And my ears have heard it too often to make any more sense of it.

Anything else you could suggest would be great. Even if it's just "you worry too much - it's fine". :)

Cheers

AB

PS The cello and viola are from a Sampletank-based VST instrument called Sonic Synth. The two violin tracks are real, and played by my wife.
 
You worry too much, it's more than fine.
Seriously, sounds great!! I like the space on the vocal, what reverb do you use? I think maybe there could be more reverb on the strings, maybe just to hide the fakeness a little, or bring the real ones up more. The strings in general are great though. I like the way you pull back on them when the acoustics come in. Vocal is great, could come up a little. Other than that, it sounds real good. The mix seems real good to me.

Nice!

Macle
 
Good!

First off, my compliments!
My only fix would be to put the vocals "in front" of the guitar.
Because the main vocal is a little duller and more reverbed than the acoustic , it makes the sound stage a little funny. (to me anyway).

Tom
 
Very nice arrangement. All the parts go together so well. Obviously a lot of work went into this one and it pays off.

Now to get nit-picky.
I agree with tmix about the sound stage. It sounds like the vocals are in a different room. This has almost a chamber music sound to me - I'd think you'd want the vocals to be almost dry. The lead vocal sounds a bit overcompressed to me. There's a really hard "b" from "burn" at 3:17 that you can probably clean up if you've got automation.

It sounds to me like you might have pulled out too much of the lows. Not exactly sure what instruments, possibly all of them. The bass sounds kind of unnatural - maybe overcompressed? Too much low pulled out?

Sounds great though. Could use some tweaking, but really nice to listen to as it is.
 
I'm with you

How do AB,
I enjoyed this. Thanks.
But, I'm with you about the bass. Overdriven, maybe? And maybe EQ some of the "edge" out of the violins? But,
what do I know?
Bill
 
Wow. Thanks to everyone for the words of encouragement and great ideas.

macle - brilliant to hear from you. How are you getting on finding the perfect record deal? Seriously, I can't wait to buy you and Max's album.

As ever, it means a lot to me that you think my song sounds OK.

The reverb is the Ultrafunk Sonitus fx3 - definitely the best value set of plugins I've ever bought. www.ultrafunk.com

Good point re the cello/viola - a wee touch of reverb should improve them. Your strings are still the best "fake" strings I've heard on the board, so I take your ideas very seriously. :)

For what it's worth, there's actually only a single guitar track throughout the whole song. I recorded via mic and DI simultaneously to get a kind of "stereo" effect, and delayed one track. But it's basically just a single track. Mind you, it's pretty heavily comp'ed - it's a tricky part to play.

tmix - thank you very much for your kind words! I think you've nailed it with your comments re the soundstage - the "backwards" relationship between the main vocal and the guitar has been annoying me without me realising it. I'll cut a lot of the reverb on the vocal, and maybe increase the verb on the guitar, for the next version.

fprod south - thank you, I'm really glad you liked it. I agree with you about the vocals - I'll try and bring them into the "same room". You have very good ears - I used different reverb settings for strings and voice.

I'm pleased you got the "chamber music" vibe - that's kind of what I was going for.

The vocals are very heavily compressed - I'll try and back off a wee bit, and cut the reverb. I'll also try and tame the "b" in "burn".

I have pulled a lot of lows from bass, vocals and guitar. I'll put some of them back in (especially the bass). I monitor on headphones so the entire low end is pretty much a mystery to me! :(

Bill - thank you very much. I don't think the bass is overdriven (but I could be wrong) however some of the notes "jump out" too much. This is basically my poor playing technique, but I'll see if I can fix it a bit better!

I am really struggling with EQ'ing the violins - I'll try taking a bit of edge off them, but I still feel they're a bit boxy sounding. I'll keep trying!

Thanks again to everyone - I learn so much every time I post something here.

Cheers

AB
 
Man thats a beautiful song.... very haunting....
I love the strings/violins....nice vocals too...



:)
 
Ultrafunk, a while ago, I asked someone who did a really nice recording what the reverb was, and it was Ultrafunk. I'm listening on headphones, so maybe that's why I also don't hear the problems others are hearing. Mixing on headphones is tough. I agree about bringing stuff more into the same room a bit, and bringing the vocal in front of the guitars, but I'm not sure about dry on the vocal. Maybe this is where pre-delay comes in, more pre-delay! I've been getting into reverb lately, maybe that's why I like it, sort of fed up with dry.

Anyway, it's great, and you've got a real distinct sound, too.

Macle
 
Very nice!!!

It's hard to find anything wrong with this. I might just add to the soundstage comment on the guitar and includ the piano to it. The bass sound was the first thing I noticed that sounded a little funky. This goes into my keepers folder.

Great song & great performance.
 
I agree wit Jag on this one. Really nice in performance and in construction.
 
Alibish

Very clean! Well arranged, executed and recorded.
The violins are indeed credible but do need a bit of warmth. One way to achieve this would be to do an overall velocity reduction of the string parts to cut down the bite of some of the harder struck notes. The patch you are using is quite good but its timbre is very sensitive to velocity changes especially between midi volumes 80 through 127. The first time it happens is at :10 on the high A and again @2:31. (Copy & Paste ?) The same melodic motif is repeated immediately following both "harsh A" phrases, and contain a sweetly played high A. Check the velocity of the 'sweet A' and apply it to the harsh one if you choose not to do an overall reduction. It's surprising to think that by merely editing two notes in a part , you can effectively warm the whole track subliminally.

Upon my initial listen to this piece, I wondered why you chose a Rhodes patch for the piano part as all else was acoustic & chamber-like. I thought a nice fat Bosendorfer or a dark Steinway would work better in this genre. However, after 5 or so more listens, ( I still type like a slug, guys ) I grew quite fond of the warm electric sound which compliments the contemporary vocals.

Great Job! Keep it up, man!
Peace,
flat-9
 
i love this tune, its obviously had a lot of time put into it and i think the structure is great.
 
Very nice job alibish! I like the sound of the strings but they are definitely in a different room from the rest of the mix.

I really like the sound of the bass for some reason.

So here's the thing, I think maybe all the heavy reverb on everything is what's giving the mix a blurry sort of quality when everything is in the mix at the same time. That's just a hunch. I like the reverb that you've got going on, it just seems like you could back off a little and bump the lead vocal a hair and you might get a bit more clarity. But then again, what do I know?

I'd be happy with it as is cause it's a really nice song. One of the better things you've posted here imo.
 
Nice song. I listened to both versions of 'Chase Me Home' while I was at Nowhere too - you do atmospheric stuff really well. I wish I had a piano and a string quartet like you. :D

The mix: it sounds fine, but there's this thing in it that I struggle with in my own stuff - the levels are good, but the instruments still sound more upfront than the vocal. If I'm in the audience, it's like the guitar is right in front of me, ditto the piano and bass, but the singer sounds like he's up on the stage. Did you put more reverb on the vocal than on the instruments? It sounds like it. I've only had this happen in my stuff since I started working more reverb into my mixes, so I think it's a reverb issue. The way I'm dealing with it is to make the vocal slightly drier than the other stuff in the mix. There's another thing too - the room sound on the strings is a bit different from the rest of the mix - what reverb did you put on the strings?

The arrangement: if it had been me, I'd have connected the string parts by having a violin play during the verses, so that when the multiple string part comes in, it's less of a 'surprise'. Simple, long violin notes through the verses would work, I think, and they'd be easy enough to add if you still have access to the violinist (or the software :D). Arranger's call...

Despite the things I've mentioned, this is a good piece of music. The song's real and I like it. I like the way I feel when I listen to it. Hang onto that, and the rest is just a matter of time. Did I ever tell you about the sculptor I met in Toronto? LOL
 
I'm overwhelmed by the response!

Kelly5150 - what a great thing to say. Thank you very much.

macle - the Ultrafunk stuff is great - really easy to use, with excellent metering. Pre-delay, hmm? That's a new one on me! I'll give it a try. ;) Thanks again for listening.

VesuviousJay - thank you very much.

Jagular - thank you so much. It's a great compliment to think my song is in somebody's keepers folder! I agree about the guitars and piano. In fact the "soundstage" for all the elements of the mix need work. Hopefully the next version will be better.

Toki987 - thank you.

flat-9 - thanks for the excellent (and detailed) comments.

I'm pleased you think the violins are credible - they're real!!! ;)

I think you might mean "high E" rather than "A". Otherwise I'm totally lost! I'll try and EQ the high E to soften it a bit.

You have good ears - I did indeed copy the same violin parts for the interlude after chorus 2. Well spotted!

The piano is in fact an acoustic patch, but I EQ'd it very heavily. In particular, I lopped off a lot of the high end. This is probably what you're hearing. Do you think a more natural sound might work? I was worried that the bright attack might "cut through" too much, but I'll give it another try with a nice dark Steinway patch.

I'm really glad you like the song. Thanks again for the excellent comments.

silver-rye - thank you, that was very kind.

erichenryus - great to hear from you again. I agree - the whole "2 different reverbs" idea just isn't working!

The bass is a real problem - I'm a terrible player, so I really need to compress the life out of it to make it usable, which makes it sound a bit artificial. But I'm glad you like it! :)

And again, I think you're right - this tune shows up my lack of ability with the tasteful application of reverb :( I'll try again. That "blurry" sound is exactly what I've been struggling with. Looks like less could be more...

Thanks for listening - it means a lot to me.

dobro - thank you very much, and I'm glad you like "Chase Me Down the Street".

I have some piano *sounds*, but unfortunately not a real piano. And my string quartet comprises a wife and her violin!

You're absolutely right about the voice being "behind" the instruments. My next mix is going to try and fix that, probably by changing the use of reverb. I'm also going to try this "pre-delay" thing macle mentioned... ;)

You have very good ears - I did use a different reverb on the strings. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but obviously wasn't!

I thought about having violins during the verses, but in the end I decided to accentuate the contrast. I'm a big fan of light and shade. The brief "crescendo" leading up to the chorus was supposed to bridge the gap and re-introduce the violins, but maybe their re-appearance is still a bit abrupt. I'll have another think about it.

I really appreciate your ideas for improving it, and I appreciate even more your closing comments - I'd exchange all the technique in the world for the ability to move people, and I'm really chuffed (Scottish for very pleased) that this one touches you.

I'm afraid I don't get the Toronto sculptor reference - apologies if I'm being thick (Scottish for stupid)!

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to listen, and even more to those who have posted. It's such a privilege to know that people are hearing my song, and even more so that you made the effort to help me make it better.

Cheers

AB
 
alibish said:
I I'm also going to try this "pre-delay" thing macle mentioned... ;)
Click to expand...

Your putting a wink there, so, maybe you don't need this info, but...

most digital reverbs have a parameter called predelay, which puts a delay on the reverb, so there's a slight space before the reverb happens, leaving the vocal dry for a few milliseconds, depending on how many milliseconds you've set.

Another thing to try to get the presence of the vocal. plus the space, maybe, copy the vocal to another track, compress it, leave it dry, and mix it in with the lead vocal. EQing the reverb is probably another thing to try.

I haven't really figured out how to use bigger reverbs in bigger productions without it getting too messy, but...I'd like to.

Macle
 
Thanks macle - I definitely do need the info!

I've heard of pre-delay, but I'ev never actually played around with it, and I have no feel for what it does to the sound.

I'll try the compressed dry vocal trick too - I don't think I've heard of that before.

EQ'ing the reverb I totally agree with - I've already taken a lot of low end off in the mix I posted. Before I did that, it was even muddier than it is just now!

Thanks again for the tips. Version 2 will be ready at the weekend.

Cheers

AB
 
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