"Lost and Found" - comments welcome.

  • Thread starter Thread starter alibish
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NICE!...... Nice fade in man.
...Very nice tune Al. ....nicely written, and performed. This has a strangely dark feeling to it that i really like. I read the previous responses, and i agree.... The answer to perfecting this is in the verb. ....good luck :D
Very very nice work man:)
gw/5
 
Hey Man...I like this one a ton. It hits me like "Not The Only One," even though they're totally different. Cool song, great performance.

I haven't read the previous comments, b/c they always make too much sense for me not to just echo them, so here's my half a cent. I think the vocal could come up in the entire mix a couple of db, and there are times when the piano and strings start to overwhelm the vocal just a tad (@3:20 most noticeable)...it's not that "bad" at all, but why not envelope the vocal a touch right there so it's always sitting on top.

The strings...use that mid EQ cut that you told me about, but maybe 3 db at 2500Hz with a Q of .45. Lastly, where is the reverb in your chain on this? Could it be BEFORE the compression? Just wondering.

There's :13 seconds of dead air at the end.

I know how you are (like me) you'll pay way too much attention to the negative parts of this, but I started the post off with my honest comments (i.e., great song and performance) and I'm ending it that way too. :D :D

nice one man.
 
Guernica - great to hear from you. I'm glad you like the darkness. :)

I'm definitely struggling with the reverb on this one, but there have been some great ideas in this thread, so hopefully version 2 will be better. I'm really pleased you like this one - it's always a compliment, and even more so from someone who does stuff as good as yours.

Chris - hi! Long time no chat. I just feel like I'm repeating myself about a million times in this thread, but it means so much to me that you like this one. You know I love your stuff, and I always like to hear what you think.

Oh, wait a minute, you then go on to criticise it at length. B@st@rd! :)

The vocal level - I know what you mean, but I'm holding off making a decision on bringing up the level until I reduce/change the reverb - that might bring it forward enough on its own.

Piano and strings swamping the vocal - ditto, I think the reverb might fix this. If not, I'll use your envelope idea. :)

I've had real problems EQ'ing the strings to fit in the mix without making them sound really un-natural. I'll try the mid-cut you suggest.

Reverb is on a couple of Auxes, *after* EQ and compression.

Dead air at the end - thanks, I've now fixed this. Bloody computers...

So in summary, you hated it. Well thanks a lot, you've really cheered me up. :)

By the way, did you get my PM?

Cheers

AB
 
Hi all

I've posted a second mix here:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/brr/singles

It's called "Lost and Found v2".

I took into account all the excellent ideas and comments from this thread, and ended up doing a complete remix from scratch.

Basically I've used much more natural EQ (essentially less cut and boost, and wider Q) plus gentler compression.

The main difference is the reverb - I'm only using a single verb this time, and it's much more natural sounding than my previous attempt. I used Cakewalk FX3 Soundstage which is totally amazing, but very heavy on the CPU.

Basically you can create your room then place all your "players" in it. It sounds very believable to my ears. But unfortunately you need a separate instance of the plugin for every track! That's 11 stereo reverbs for this song! Needless to say my PC complained loudly, but I got there in the end.

I'd be very grateful if anyone has time to listen to the new version, and let me know what you think. It would be especially cool if you could compare versions 1 and 2 and tell me if you think I've made things worse or better.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this one - I think the new version is a lot better, and it's mainly down to youse!

Cheers

AB
 
"The song's real and I like it. I like the way I feel when I listen to it. Hang onto that, and the rest is just a matter of time. Did I ever tell you about the sculptor I met in Toronto?"

No, you're not being thick; I'm being obscure.

I was playing guitar and singing in a gay vegetarian restaurant in
Toronto one time (I liked that place - the food was good, and free if you played), and a guy at a table near the stage was listening very carefully to what I was doing. When I finished the set, we talked. He told me he was a sculptor, and that when you were an artist, it was just a matter of time - you just kept at it, and after you'd done your hours, you got better. If you enjoyed your art, then putting in the hours was fun.

Although he was right, I don't think I approach it the way he did, and I don't think I see things in that way. I'm more short-sighted. But he made a big impression on me for some reason. I hope he's still alive and sculpting. I bet his stuff is pretty good.

So, what's the point of this ramble? Well, just what I said before - hang onto that real involvement in the music and keep at it, and let outcomes take care of themself. The Toronto sculptor's right.
 
alibish said:

I think you might mean "high E" rather than "A". Otherwise I'm totally lost! I'll try and EQ the high E to soften it a bit.

You have good ears - I did indeed copy the same violin parts for the interlude after chorus 2. Well spotted!

The piano is in fact an acoustic patch, but I EQ'd it very heavily. In particular, I lopped off a lot of the high end. This is probably what you're hearing. Do you think a more natural sound might work? I was worried that the bright attack might "cut through" too much, but I'll give it another try with a nice dark Steinway patch.

I'm really glad you like the song. Thanks again for the excellent comments.
Click to expand...

IT'S AN "A" @ :10!!!!!! (Don't challenge my pitch.... it's perfect!):D
(if you are "lost", please feel free to PM me)

Thank you. I pride my ears.

No, keep the Rhodes......It's lovely & warm, as stated previously, and I agree that a different patch might "cut through" too much!

peace,
Ralph Funaro (flat-9)

p.s. Thanks for checking me out @ the clinic . (We all need each other to produce excellence)
 
As much as I liked the first version, the second version is way better.. The vocals sound clearer and louder, much improved... and the bass that kicks in at 1:05 sounds a little tighter, not as loose and boomy.... you did a great job remixing it dude, very nice...

After listing to it a few more times, the only thing that I'd suggest is maybe a short violin outro, like the intro.
The song ends kind of abruptly...
Just a suggestion...

Did I mention how much I love this song?.... :) :p
 
Nice job on the re-mix!
I do miss the electric piano though:( I thought it complimented the contemporary aspects of this piece and added warmth.)
I think you may have jumped the gun with the fade out on the strings both at the initial statement and the recapitulation, however. It's to important a theme, ( beautifully played by your wife I might add,) to diminish so quickly.
That "A" @ :10 & 2:31 still bothers me big time. It still sticks out like a sore thumb especially as it is not a destination tone in the melody, but merely part of the ornamental approach to the F#.
If you don't have the editing tools to reduce the velocity or soften the timbre of this note, don't give it another thought. ( I tend to be real picky on minute details.)
HOLD THE FORT ...................All right. I'm gonna eat crow here. I just had my wife ( who has better ears than I ) listen to it ............and she thinks it's just fine! She also loved the song as much as I.;)

peace,
Ralph
 
As usual, very nice. But you already knew that without my comment. Good feel. Love that acoustic. Bottom end sounds a bit fuzzy/undefined - that's my only technical observation. Good job. It's a keeper.
 
dobro - thanks for the explanation. The sculptor was definitely right. :) Looking forward to hearing your CD...

flat-9 - I think I now (at last) know what note you're talking about. It's the high A! :)

What threw me is that on my sequencer it's at 0:08, not 0:10. I wonder if I've done something weird to the MP3 that shifts everything back a couple of seconds?

Anyway, I agree - the top note of the first violin's part does jump out a bit (although I'm glad your wife doesn't think it's too bad) - I'll try and soften it for version 3. Thanks for persevering despite my stupidity!

By the way, the second version has exactly the same piano track as the first version - I didn't change the sound! It was never a Rhodes! Honestly!!! :) I think I basically killed the natural piano sound through far too much EQ, which I removed for version 2.

I agree about the fade-out - I think I'll fade the strings more gradually (and starting a bit later) on version 3. It's funny - I started out with the guitar being the focal point for the track, but the strings somehow became the main theme.

Thank you very much for your kind comments re my wife's playing - she's says thank you too! It's the first time she's recorded anything, so it means a lot to her to get positive comments.

And thanks again to you and your wife - it's an amazing feeling to know that other folk like this song. Glad you think the second version is better overall.

Kelly5150 - thank you for taking the time to listen again, and I'm really pleased you think the remix is an improvement.

It's funny that you mention an "outro" - the song actually has a cool guitar/violin outro, but I didn't actually get around to recording it. I'll try and track it and do yet another version next weekend. Thanks for the idea. And thanks so much for listening.

StevenLindsey - great to hear from you again, and I'm so glad you like the song. Believe me I'm really insecure about my music, so it means a lot to me that anyone else likes my stuff. :)

Re the bass- my brother said the same thing. His monitoring setup is much better than mine. I think you and he are right! (I monitor on headphones so the low end is little more than guesswork - I think decent monitors might be my next purchase).

Thanks again to everyone for listening. If you can cope, I'll post another attempt in a few days. :)

Cheers

AB
 
AB

When I listen to music, I go for the first impression, the "feel". Good music has a certain "feel", a flavor if you will. Something to do with the spirit of a person I think. You have captured some of that stuff and I enjoy the sense of it. Quit being insecure about your music and just cut loose man. I think you've had enough positive feedback by now to know it's good. Get down, laddie! That is what you call guys in Scotland, ain't it? :D I'd still like to hear one with just you and the acoustic guitar. A good day to you sir.
 
I didn't read all the feedback, so forgive me if I am redundant.

I have three comments. First, either the guitar needs to come down a bit or the vocal needs to come up a bit. By the way, excellent vocal on this tune.

Second, the solo violin is too loud, especially when its playing around the vocal. Those sections could be brought back with no harm done, I think. I didn't mind the EQ on the violin, just the level.

The vocal could stand a bit of verb--some space added--but thats a maybe--a producers choice. The main thing is this--you mixed this like a band would mix by committee. By that, I mean that everything is right there all the time. With this song, I believe that the vocal should be the thing calling the shots and everything else needs to fall in line behind it. The object to is to have a focus on the song and the vocal melody is key. Everything else is support. Bring stuff up when there is no singing, but keep the other parts from competing with the vocal and you are there.
 
StevenLindsey said:
AB

When I listen to music, I go for the first impression, the "feel". Good music has a certain "feel", a flavor if you will. Something to do with the spirit of a person I think. You have captured some of that stuff and I enjoy the sense of it. Quit being insecure about your music and just cut loose man. I think you've had enough positive feedback by now to know it's good. Get down, laddie! That is what you call guys in Scotland, ain't it? :D I'd still like to hear one with just you and the acoustic guitar. A good day to you sir.
Click to expand...

Excellent comment !
 
Steven - I'm speechless. I've said it before, but I'd happily exchange all the technical ability in the world if I can make music that "touches" folk. You've made my day (my year, actually) with your incredibly kind and encouraging comments.

And I do really appreciate all the positive stuff from everyone, but I still find it really difficult to actually "believe" that my stuff is good. It's weird, though; I oscillate between thinking my stuff is great and thinking it's terrible. I'm really pleased you like it. Thank you again.

crawdad - thank you very much for taking the time to listen - I really appreciate it.

Excellent comments, as usual. :)

I played around with the guitar/vocal balance a lot. I'm surprised you think the vocal should come up further, but I'll certainly try it. Your music sounds so professional that I'm going to try everything you suggest! And I'm so pleased that you think the vocal is good.

Violin too loud - yes, I think you're right. To date I haven't really changed the level of individual tracks during a song - I tend to set the levels and leave them that way throughout. Every time I post something here I get so many useful tips and ideas. Looks like this is yet another technique I have to get my head around. :)

Vocal reverb - the first version had a lot of reverb. I may have gone too far the other way this time, so I'll try somewhere in the middle for the next version. I think mixing on headphones really accentuates the reverb - it sounds like loads on phones, but then through speakers it's hardly there at all.

Your last point is such good advice - I really admire that you can see music at a level above just EQ and compression and reverb. You think beyond the technical and get into the art, the meaning. You're right that I was going for a "balanced" sound, and I forgot to ensure the track had a focus. And it's obvious (now you mention it!) that the focal point should be the vocal. I'll push back the supporting stuff during the vocal sections, and bring the strings back to the fore during the instrumental passages.

Thanks to everyone for helping me - I really appreciate it.

Cheers

AB
 
I actually like the voice as is--if you added any verb it would just be a touch--its all personal preference, and no verb is in vogue these days. As for the vocal level--its fine in MOST of the song. There just some spots where it starts to sink into the instrumentation. I do think you should try to automate the mix. Bring the obviously low vocal lines up a bit, then back down--or lower the loud instruments in those spots. Mess with the levels of the instrumentation. Its time consuming, but it will improve the overall mix I think. If you are careful, no one will even realise that things are coming up and down--it will just sound like a flow and be right.

What you already have is pretty darn good. We are just talking about the fine points now. You are doing really nice stuff and I definitely want to hear a remix if you go for one.
 
musically...I will also say this is a nice tune..

mixwise/recording..etc
the first thing that hit me was that individual instruments are very compressed. The ac/elec gtr is very sustaining, as well the bass too. The dynamics maybe you are looking for are lost with all the compression. The strings sound good, but I might think your mic choice was not the best (as a guess). They sound kinda honky and nasal-y, but they DO sound good, never the less. I might think experimenting getting away from the instruments to let them 'open up' a bit. Maybe you are already far back from them. A "warmer" sound might fit better in this tune. But...getting further away may make it even worse. Also, maybe spreading them out in the mix even more might help. I am a glutton for wide panning, so take that with a grain of salt.

the piano sound is very 'hidden' in your mix, but does help to fill things out. If you want more definition with that instrument, maybe a real one and a nice stereo spreaaaaad with it. An elec pno in the background probably struggles to do not much other than just "fill things out"

volumes are good between instruments, imo... and the singing is great. The trailing reverb tail on the end of the song sounds kinda "boingy" and fake... Got another verb??

Nice mellow tune. I liked it. Kinda like a new age Moody Blues.
 
Good song and performance!

The only minor nit-pick I have in that dept. is it seems a tad rushed in a few spots.

I think the mix is good, but would be better if you could ease up on the compression a bit and let the instruments breath more. Move those faders!:D

The vocal reverb doesn't sound bad, but doesn't really fit. I think it's too bright. Maybe something a bit darker wouldn't distract from the vocal while still adding depth.

I find on mellow stuff sometimes it's better to mix top-down. Start with just the vocal, then bring the other instruments in to support it.
 
crawdad - I'll definitely put the effort in and automate those levels!

mixmkr - thank you very much for listening and posting. I greatly appreciate it.

Glad you like the song.

You're absolutely right about the compression - I tend to hide my lack of technique behind very heavy compression, especially on the bass. But you made a really good point about losing the dynamics - I'll back off on the compression and let the instruments breathe a bit more.

The honky/nasal sound on the violins is exactly what I'm struggling with, and my wife pointed out the same problem.

I'm sure you're right that a different mic would help - unfortunately I only have one mic! I'll try and improve the sound with EQ.

I mic'ed the strings from a distance of about a foot, above and behind my wife's left shoulder. I'll do some more experimenting with micing from in front of the player, and also from a greater distance.

I think I may have removed too much low end from the strings too, so I'll try putting some back and see if that "warms up" the sound.

The first mix had the strings 70% panned left and right, but with the second mix I was going for a more natural/classic "quartet" arrangement, so they're in a semi circle just behind the vocal. I love wide panning too, but I felt with this one that it sounded better as a more intimate and naturalistic layout.

Re the piano - I may bring it up/forward a wee bit. Unfortunately I don't have access to a real piano, and I did use an acoustic piano patch, but I'll experiment with different sounds because a few folk have suggested the piano sound could be improved.

I think the "trailing reverb" at the end is actually the fade out on the synth patch - carelessness on my part, rather than a cheap and nasty reverb. But I could be wrong :)

Thanks again for taking the time to listen and post such excellent comments and ideas - I'm very grateful.

M.Brane - thank you very much for posting, and I'm really glad you like the song.

I totally agree that I've over-compressed some of the instruments - the next mix will loosen them up a bit.

I used the same reverb on every track, but with different "proximity" to the virtual mic, and different placement in the soundstage. I think I may have placed the vocal tracks "too close" to the mic-point, so I'll try moving them back a wee bit.

Your suggestion re starting with the vocal and adding the other tracks as support is a great idea, and kind of ties in with what crawdad said about finding the "focal point" for the song.

Thank you for the excellent ideas.

Cheers

AB
 
Violins Suggestion

Someone else may have allready suggested this, but when I need violins to sound fuller and sweeter I mic them from in front and BELOW about 2 foot. It gets more of the body resonant sound rather than the nasal bow-string sound.
 
Read quickly through the responses and I'm totally & completely 100% with flat-9 here...up to the "A" @ :10 & 2:31 bit! (the different sound aside, it also sounds like it's intonated a tad low...but perhaps my ears are fooling me here...it's been a while since I last picked up my double bass) ;)

Very good though! Excellent job! :D
 
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