Live Overhead Problem...

[PhilTiki]

I recorded a show at a small bar and used 2 overheads (MXL 603s) to pickup drums and cymbals. When I'm mixing, I can't seem to get the chatter and 'atmosphere' out of the recording unless I kill the overheads all together. I close mic'ed the other drums but the cymbals disappear without the overheads.

What is the proper technique for live overhead micing in a small place?

 

[mshilarious]

Did you use XY or something? You could try a spaced pair instead, and kind of close miked, like maybe 18" away, or a bit further for a cymbal basher. Basically you'd have a mic for ride & a mic for hat, with each picking up some of the crashes.

Try to keep the crowd in the null of the mics--you don't have to aim them straight down at the cymbals--and if there is a reflective surface near the drummer, try to dampen it.

That plus a gate should do the trick.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

You could just try living with the chatter...

When I do a live recording in a small bar (or anywhere) I put up a mic in the back of the room in addition to any on stage to pick up more atmoshphere... I love the stuff.

And look...One way or another, bleed is going to be all over the place in a live recording. Whether it is instruments showing up in the "wrong" mic or crowd noise, you just can't get rid of it. You'll kill your sound quality if you try, and you still won't be successful. Learn to use the bleed to your advantage. It gives your recording space, life, ambience, and all of those other wonderful vague terms that make a live recording sound....live.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

That plus a gate should do the trick.

A gate on drum overheads? I'm thinking that's a big no-no.

 

[HangDawg]

A gate on drum overheads? I'm thinking that's a big no-no.

Me concur..................................

 

[kid klash]

A gate on drum overheads? I'm thinking that's a big no-no.

Me three...

 

[xstatic]

Well, a gate on the overheads might give the whole mix a kind of tremolo'ed sound if you leave the gate right near the threshold

 

[PhilTiki]

You could just try living with the chatter...

When I do a live recording in a small bar (or anywhere) I put up a mic in the back of the room in addition to any on stage to pick up more atmoshphere... I love the stuff.

And look...One way or another, bleed is going to be all over the place in a live recording. Whether it is instruments showing up in the "wrong" mic or crowd noise, you just can't get rid of it. You'll kill your sound quality if you try, and you still won't be successful. Learn to use the bleed to your advantage. It gives your recording space, life, ambience, and all of those other wonderful vague terms that make a live recording sound....live.

I've really tried to live with the chatter but we end up sounding like background music on our own CD (which we probably were). I, personally, find it annoying when I'm listening to the band and I all I hear is some guy going on and on about his car. Or try and score some chick. Well, you get the idea. It distracts from the music.

Maybe I used too good of a pair of mics for recording? They picked up EVERYTHING! Or maybe I need to try different mic techniques for the next time.

Maybe I should bring the overheads down and just us them as cymbal mics. This way there is more signal from the cymbals and I don't have to have the level as loud to get the same even sound when I mix, thus lowering the ambience.

Hmmm...

 

[leddy]

I record live all the time. I use a pair of Oktava MC012's with the pads on, spaced pair at about shoulder height of the drummer while he is seated, one aiming toward the hh/snare and the other to between the floor tom and the mid tom. Then I add a close mic (usually a 57) to the snare and bass drum (D112). Great results, very little crowd noise. Unless, of course, the room just sucks.

How far away are your overheads?

 

[PhilTiki]

I record live all the time. I use a pair of Oktava MC012's with the pads on, spaced pair at about shoulder height of the drummer while he is seated, one aiming toward the hh/snare and the other to between the floor tom and the mid tom. Then I add a close mic (usually a 57) to the snare and bass drum (D112). Great results, very little crowd noise. Unless, of course, the room just sucks.

How far away are your overheads?

I had them a little over 3' above the snare drum tilted slightly inwards. Not having alot of live recording experience, I went with what has worked in the studio.

The room seemed to be a nice quiet place (Trader Vic's) with carpeting and alot of tiki decor. But now that I think of it, we were right in front of a large (floor to celing) mirror. Maybe by tilting the mics inwards (towards the mirror) I actually made things worse...

 

[leddy]

Glass can be a big problem.

 

[mshilarious]

Well, a gate on the overheads might give the whole mix a kind of tremolo'ed sound if you leave the gate right near the threshold

Woah, slow down! You have to do everything I said else first! The gate is no magic bullet, but once you achieve a greater dynamic range between drums and cymbals, it becomes possible (I forgot to mention a bit of high pass might help here).

Then we aren't really talking about overheads anymore, we're talking about cymbal mic and hat mic.

Really the hat mic will only get gated during a drumroll. The cymbal mic will trigger infrequently, just during crashes, or like the hat mic on rides. I suspect the cymbal mic would be the greater culprit for crowd noise anyway.

Whether it works is very dependent upon the style of drumming (wouldn't work for Keith Moon), but it's post-processing anyway, so no harm no foul. If the gate isn't the ticket, then squelch the cymbal mic manually.

 

[PhilTiki]

Then we aren't really talking about overheads anymore, we're talking about cymbal mic and hat mic.

Maybe that's what I need to do then. Just close mic the cymbals and not try and capture the 'room'. From the bleed I got with the 603s', the room should take care of itself.

We did an 'exotic' type of set. Kick, snare, rack and conga for floor. A single crash/ride and a pair of hats. In fact, I don't think he used regular sticks the entire night. Mallets, brushes, those bundle-type of sticks as well. More like a percussion set up.

Also, I did try playing with the gate and/or manually bringing down the OHs and it didn't work too well. It was a noticable change. Like someone rolling up and down the window while you're driving. I guess I have to keep playing with it.


Thanks for all the help.

 

[mshilarious]

Also, I did try playing with the gate and/or manually bringing down the OHs and it didn't work too well. It was a noticable change. Like someone rolling up and down the window while you're driving. I guess I have to keep playing with it.

Yes I don't think it will work until you get the cymbals relatively much louder than the crowd. And with the unusual kit setup, that might be tricky.

I think I'd focus on deadening the space around the drums. Maybe you have a banner you can hang on the mirrored wall, and hide some blankets or something behind? Or move the drums further away from the wall? Then aim those mics at the blankets, with the cymbals 60 degrees off axis, which puts the crowd 120 degrees off axis or so. You'll lose a bit of high end, but hopefully a lot more of the crowd.

One thing working against you is the 603s don't have a particularly tight pattern, but I think with the above setup the crowd should be about -10db from what you were doing.

 

[PhilTiki]

One thing working against you is the 603s don't have a particularly tight pattern, but I think with the above setup the crowd should be about -10db from what you were doing.

So I should look for some other mics to record live cymbals with? Which ones do you think would work better than the 603s'?

 

[mshilarious]

So I should look for some other mics to record live cymbals with? Which ones do you think would work better than the 603s'?

No, I wouldn't say that. Try to work on placement and absorption, then if that doesn't work, think about different mics.

 

[ecktronic]

Get the waves chatter reducer plug-in, its great!!