Live band, drum overheads: Cardiod vs Hyper...

[C_flat]

...thanks for the replies below on my Aurelex question.

Given that we record "live" in the basement, and my guitarist has a Minimum Acceptable Volume at which he'll play guitar, here's a follow-up question:

I've currently got a pair of MXL-603's in XY configuration on a stereo bar, set a few inches above and forward of the drummer's head. Would it even be worth the expense of going to a tighter-pattern mic like Octava MC-012's with the super or hyper-cardioid capaules, or am I going to get soaked with guitar amp bleed in either case?

The thing that bugs me the most about the bleed is that the drum overheads pick up a lot of guitar (2 Princeton Reverbs, in stereo, amps ~12 feet away on either side of the drumkit), and the guitar tone through the overheads is distant and dull. They sound great through their own SM57's, but I can't add enough of the clarity of the SM57's before the guitar dominates the mix.

Cb

 

[franksquid]

Take a look at this thread...

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114426

The wonerful author describes three methods of overhead mic'ing. I would try either the Spaced Mics or Modified Spaced Mics method rather then the XY or Coincident Mics method. I think that your XY may be pointing RIGHT at the guitar players amps.

What other mics and where do you have them on the kit?

 

[C_flat]

The drumkit is in the center of the room on a rug (though it only occupies ~1/4 of a large basement) against a wall which has a thick carpet from floor to ceiling, about 25 feet long.

I've got a D112 in the kick, an SM57 on the snare, and the MXL-603's as overheads. No bleed problems with the SM57 or D112.

I've got a line-out to the Yamaha AW16G on my bass preamp, but I also have the cabs going at about 3/4's the volume I'd run normally. My cabs are just to the left of the drummer facing forward.

The 2 Princeton Reverb guitar amps are about 12 feet to each side of the drumkit, along the same carpeted wall canted slightly inward. I've got miscelleaneous junk blocking them from having a straight shot at the overheads. I've got an SM57 almost against the grills. Negligible bleed in these mics.

A conga/bonga & trumpet player is off to the side, at about 2:00 to the drummer. I've got a single SM58 tilted down toward the congas / bongos that he also plays trumpet into.

Here's a recent MP3 (except that I had the -603's just hanging from the ceiling, 1 over the snare/hihat, 1 over the floor tom when it was recorded. I went to a stereo bar & the XY configuration because I don't like the sound of the snare or the toms)

Any mic'ing, mixing, EQ, etc suggestions are welcomed.

Cb

 

[tenkas]

I recorded many jam sessions using d112 on kic, sm57 snare and pair of mxl603s for overhead. I used XY miking technic because I can't afford to place an other stand, so I put both mics on a bar. I used to play with big monitors and guitar amp, but we are now jamming with headphones, which eliminates all problems (I but bass, guitar, keys direct). Also, don't worry about the bleeding, it adds space to your recording and makes your mix sounds "sometimes" fuller.

 

[nuemes]

If your guitarist is playing through solid state amps such as the Fender Princeton then there is absolutley no reason why he shouldn't be willing to turn down his volume during recording. After listening to the MP3 I'd convince him to scrap his Princetons for an old Twin anyway (I'm a tube guy; even for jazz...)

Did you add/subract any EQ on your drums for this recording?

 

[C_flat]

The Princeton Reverbs are both 'blackface' tube amps from the mid 60's. Those amps really don't develop their full tonal character until you've got them up a little bit (running at 1 or 2 on the volume knob doesn't sound too good) but I'm confident he could drop his volume back ~10% without much trouble.

Overhead EQ: shelved below 80hz, boosted a few db at 320, slight dip at 2000, 4db boost at 10,000 and above

Snare: volume zero'd on this track, the overheads get plenty for this one

Kick: 4db boost below 60hz, 4 db dip at 500, broad 5db boost at 3500, shelved at around 7500 and above

Any suggestions?

Cb

 

[Farview]

I may not be getting this, but it sounds like you have the amps somewhat facing the drums. If you turn the amps to face forward and have them along side of the kit, you should be fine.

 

[nuemes]

I would have never guessed those were old tube Princetons; guess the chorus effect threw me off!

You've got some nice sounding cymbals; it would be great to hear them lay over the rest of the mix. Maybe a small boost at 8k instead of 10k and then another boost at 12k(?)

It's a great song BTW; really enjoying it.

 

[C_flat]

...here's our layout & the mics I'm running to my Yamaha AW16G:

 

[C_flat]

You've got some nice sounding cymbals; it would be great to hear them lay over the rest of the mix. Maybe a small boost at 8k instead of 10k and then another boost at 12k(?)

It's a great song BTW; really enjoying it.

Thanks! I'll try that on the overhead EQ (when momma's not sleeping in the next room)

Cb