Line out to 8 track recorder/mixer.

E

Elliottina

New member
OK, possible stupid question coming up, but here we go:

I own a Zoom R16 (it's an 8 track digital recorder/mixer, for those who are not familiar with it). So here is my question: Could I run a cable from a 'Line Out' on a PA, into one of the inputs on my 8 track, or would I risk damaging the input if I did that?

Reason why I ask is as good as the Zoom R16 is (when you get used to it) only having 8 mic inputs is a bit limiting. Especially when trying to record a full band. So I was playing with the idea of running a line from a PA into one of my inputs, effectively increasing my total number of inputs by how ever many the PA had.
I know that I would be stuck with the levels of what was set on the PA when I recorded it, and wouldn't be able to change that, but mixing them on the PA before the take, would still give me more freedom I feel as it would increase my total input number. (if it wont blow up my input!)
 
Thanks Jimmy.

It's one of those things, where I had a little voice in my head telling me it was fine and just to do it, but another one in the background going "but if it isnt and you wreck your input you have no money to replace it". lol
 
Consider taking two line outs, and submixing a discrete set of whatever as a stereo set, rather than just a mono feed....
 
Sounds like a good idea. Wouldn't that mean taking up 2 on of inputs though instead of 1? The only reason I was thinking of doing this was to increase (in a fashion) my number of inputs. For example: In a live/gig situation I could run a line out for vocals/backing vocals so they only take up 1 input, rather than 2 or more, thus saving an input to use on something else. Would the increase of quality by running two line outs to create a stereo pair be worth losing the ability to mix things later if more was having to come through the PA/line out?
Obviously never done this so just trying to weigh up my options. :)
 
I'd be assuming that if you were going to use two inputs, you'd probably want to be mixing 3 or 4 sources, to taste... no point otherwise. Wiithout knowing the exact set up you're attempting to record, it's hard to give specific advice...
 
Armistice said:
I'd be assuming that if you were going to use two inputs, you'd probably want to be mixing 3 or 4 sources, to taste... no point otherwise. Wiithout knowing the exact set up you're attempting to record, it's hard to give specific advice...
Click to expand...

Indeed it is!

Also, it is hard to find out if the line inputs on the Zoom are balanced? If not and the mixer is a ways away, you might have noise/hum problems and the best fix would be a pair of DI boxes to send a balanced mic level feed to the recorder.

Dave.
 
If you are using the PA out to the Zoom for only vocals, I'd suggest using 2 Zoom inputs (as mentioned above) - one for lead vocal and one for backup vocals. This would allow, at least, some element of adjustment during mix down.
 
Armistice said:
I'd be assuming that if you were going to use two inputs, you'd probably want to be mixing 3 or 4 sources, to taste... no point otherwise. Wiithout knowing the exact set up you're attempting to record, it's hard to give specific advice...
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't have an exact set up in mind. It was purely something I thought might help increase the amount of mics I can use in a hypothetical situation where more would be needed.

The only issue I would have with recording 3+ mics from a PA is the lack of mixing capability after its been recorded. Not that I doubt my ability to mix on the fly, but I think I would still like the option to change the levels of as many things as possible after its been recorded.

ecc83 said:
Indeed it is!

Also, it is hard to find out if the line inputs on the Zoom are balanced? If not and the mixer is a ways away, you might have noise/hum problems and the best fix would be a pair of DI boxes to send a balanced mic level feed to the recorder.

Dave.
Click to expand...

The Zoom R16 inputs take both 3/4" jacks, and XLR, so can be both balanced, or unbalanced I believe. Although obviously I would need the right sort of cable for it. Maybe a couple of DI boxes when I next get some cash spare could be a useful investment.
 
ecc83 said:
Indeed it is!

Also, it is hard to find out if the line inputs on the Zoom are balanced? If not and the mixer is a ways away, you might have noise/hum problems and the best fix would be a pair of DI boxes to send a balanced mic level feed to the recorder.

Dave.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree with this as a first shot.

Frankly, the idea of attenuating a signal just to gain it up later is pretty much the opposite of good gain staging, and is likely to end up with a net gain in noise over just running unbalanced the whole way, or possibly pseudo-balancing for a very long run. I'm not sure where this idea of using passive DIs for this kind of thing came from, but it seems to be a pervasive half-assed solution to problems which might not even exist.

Now, if you find yourself with a ground loop issue that can't be solved in other ways (they almost always can) you may end up needing transformer isolation, but that's a different deal.
 
Elliottina said:
To be honest, I don't have an exact set up in mind. It was purely something I thought might help increase the amount of mics I can use in a hypothetical situation where more would be needed.

The only issue I would have with recording 3+ mics from a PA is the lack of mixing capability after its been recorded. Not that I doubt my ability to mix on the fly, but I think I would still like the option to change the levels of as many things as possible after its been recorded.



The Zoom R16 inputs take both 3/4" jacks, and XLR, so can be both balanced, or unbalanced I believe. Although obviously I would need the right sort of cable for it. Maybe a couple of DI boxes when I next get some cash spare could be a useful investment.
Click to expand...

Yes, I saw that it uses combo, XLR+TRS connectors but I could not find an absolute reference to the jack input being balanced. Simple enough to test for with a TRS lead and a wet finger!

BTW, you will struggle to get those 19mm jacks to fit!

Dave.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I have to disagree with this as a first shot.

Frankly, the idea of attenuating a signal just to gain it up later is pretty much the opposite of good gain staging, and is likely to end up with a net gain in noise over just running unbalanced the whole way, or possibly pseudo-balancing for a very long run. I'm not sure where this idea of using passive DIs for this kind of thing came from, but it seems to be a pervasive half-assed solution to problems which might not even exist.

Now, if you find yourself with a ground loop issue that can't be solved in other ways (they almost always can) you may end up needing transformer isolation, but that's a different deal.
Click to expand...

Depends how far and next to what the unbalanced run goes.

By definition, pseudo-balancing will not work if the inputs are not balanced!

Ground loops might be a problem but my concern is for just plain hum pickup in a long, unbal lead and possible RFI.

One solution I use is "shielded return" leads. (will post a drawing if wanted OP)

: 1:1 traffs ARE better than 10:1 DI units but again, if the destination is unbalanced the only benefit is ground isolation.

Dave.
 
I guess I was saying you can usually get away with pseudo balancing into the XLR mic input. Most modern line outs have plenty current available to drive the relatively hi input impedance of most modern mic pres.

I haven't heard of "shielded return". Guess I'll hit google.

It really takes quite a bit of a run through a pretty "dirty" environment before balancing actually starts to pay off, but it is a valid concern. I'm not completely clear whether the OP is talking about recording an actual live gig where placement and cable runs might be restricted, or in a more controlled environment where things could be planned out a bit better...
 
ashcat_lt said:
I guess I was saying you can usually get away with pseudo balancing into the XLR mic input. Most modern line outs have plenty current available to drive the relatively hi input impedance of most modern mic pres.

I haven't heard of "shielded return". Guess I'll hit google.

It really takes quite a bit of a run through a pretty "dirty" environment before balancing actually starts to pay off, but it is a valid concern. I'm not completely clear whether the OP is talking about recording an actual live gig where placement and cable runs might be restricted, or in a more controlled environment where things could be planned out a bit better...
Click to expand...

Yes. he could feed the mic inputs but the pre might be overloaded (and you did not want attenuation!). Then, if the line feed comes from the ubiquitous TL07X family they will get distorted into anything lower than about 2k

"Shielded return"? I might have invented the term (but surely not the technique. I ain't that smart/lucky to get something patentable!) . I'll do a scribble.

I agree the OP would be unlucky to get noise on ubal lines but a stage and possible "disco" lighting? RFI would be my biggest worry, mobile phones can twitter into almost anything!

Dave.
 
We're not arguing here. Since we're not there, we're really just talking theory. In these situations you really don't know what's going to be a problem until its a problem. It's good to have a number of tools to at your disposal to deal with the problems without causing too many more, or at least to find the optimum balance...

I admit I haven't checked the specs for this specific gear. Most mic pres nowadays seem to be at least 2-3K, and they almost all go to unity. At that point, if you're overloading the Pre then you're probably also distorting the line drivers at the source.
 
Elliottina said:
To be honest, I don't have an exact set up in mind. It was purely something I thought might help increase the amount of mics I can use in a hypothetical situation where more would be needed.

The only issue I would have with recording 3+ mics from a PA is the lack of mixing capability after its been recorded. Not that I doubt my ability to mix on the fly, but I think I would still like the option to change the levels of as many things as possible after its been recorded.



The Zoom R16 inputs take both 3/4" jacks, and XLR, so can be both balanced, or unbalanced I believe. Although obviously I would need the right sort of cable for it. Maybe a couple of DI boxes when I next get some cash spare could be a useful investment.
Click to expand...

Stereo is good, but the zoom records in mono regardless and then mixes down to a stereo track. Seems like a waste of time with the end result being the same.
 
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