LIMITING kik and snare.

[ecktronic]

What would happen to the sound if i were to place a limiter on a stereo track (to be mastered) just above the point where there is nothing but kik and snare? Would the kik and snare start to distort or do plug in limiters use heavy compression techniques and not a brick wall limiter?

 

[Massive Master]

If it's going to be mastered, don't do it. Turn it down until you've got a good 3dB or so of headroom. Don't be in a rush to use all the bits (assuming you're working in 24-bit, but really, even in 16).

Don't do ANYTHING for the sake of sheer volume. Get the mix to rock, leave some room, send it out.

 

[ecktronic]

I amnt sending it away to be mastered though, i am attempting it myself!
The thing is i can get a pretty decent sound using EQ and multiband compression but when i try and get the proper volume the thing kinda dies. Is it possible to get a proper level with waves and wavelab plug ins only?

 

[Massive Master]

(A) If you need multiband to get it to sound good during mastering, does it sound good to begin with?

(B) It can be done - with the proper practical experience.

 

[ecktronic]

I dont think it needs mutliband to make it sound better, but it does help me out a bit with the lo and hi end and very rarely to slightly tame or bring out a mid band range. Is it not normal to multi band compress when mastering?
My take on mastering is usually just simply 3 band EQ then multiband compress, then compress and limit then compress then boost with volume maximizer. No spectralizer thingy majigs or fancy 31 band EQs etc.
Massive master what is your most common chain for mastering? Do you use fancy phase EQs and 31 bands? and do you use frequency analysis tools to help you get the right sound or do you use your ears rather than a mad graphical representation?

 

[ryanlikestorock]

The first step to mastering is listening. Then, identify what you're hearing and what tools are needed get from where you are to where you want the recording to be. In my experience, you'll probably want some sort of EQ, compression, limiting system set up... but, the particulars can vary per project.

The world-class mastering facilities I've been in usually have:

D/A converters
6 band EQ
Single Band compression
Multi-band compression
Stereo field
Another EQ (sometimes digital)
De-Ess
A/D converters

 

[ecktronic]

Right, i kinda thought that the top mastering places had fancy equipment that i hadnt heard of before that magically makes the tracks brilliant!!

 

[Farview]

Right, i kinda thought that the top mastering places had fancy equipment that i hadnt heard of before that magically makes the tracks brilliant!!

They do. But all that fancy equipment still is just EQ and compression for the most part. Just very, very expensive stuff designed for mastering in particular.

 

[Massive Master]

I dont think it needs mutliband to make it sound better, but it does help me out a bit with the lo and hi end and very rarely to slightly tame or bring out a mid band range. Is it not normal to multi band compress when mastering?
My take on mastering is usually just simply 3 band EQ then multiband compress, then compress and limit then compress then boost with volume maximizer. No spectralizer thingy majigs or fancy 31 band EQs etc.
Massive master what is your most common chain for mastering? Do you use fancy phase EQs and 31 bands? and do you use frequency analysis tools to help you get the right sound or do you use your ears rather than a mad graphical representation?

• I would say it's not normal to use MBC's unless they're absolutely necessary. I know a few respectable guys who swear by them, but most swear AT them as the "new abused kid on the block."
• 31 band EQ's are normally used for side-chaining and live use. Very rare to use one in mastering (side-chaining aside).
• Frequency analysis tools: Ears and monitors.

"Common chain" is a rough idea, but I suppose if there were a rule of thumb, it would be:

• Corrective EQ - This would include de-essing, noise removal, hum reduction, overtones, etc.
• Compression stage(s)
• Shaping EQ
• Brickwall - ONLY as a safety net - Rarely if EVER used to increase volume (we get into that "abuse" thing again).
• Dither

Some need more, many need less, but that's a fairly typical setup. The gear choice varies (there's a list on my site) from track to track. "Simple is better" 90% of the time.

IMHO, you're far to interested in volume ("multiband compress, then compress and limit then compress then boost with volume maximizer").

You do what the mix "asks" for. Not much else.

 

[ecktronic]

Yeah i am a bit wrapped up in the old volume thingy, but i want my CD to be as loud as the commercial cds. Might be a bit of an unhealthy obsession!! But i do totally understand that quality comes before quantity (in this case RMS) and that is why i am spending sooo much time working out ways in which to get this volume without the sound colapsing or distorting. I am slowly getting there believe it or not. I have spent many many hours playing with lots of different orders of plug in compression.
Massive master, when i get pumping on my tracks it always seems to be noticed on the guitars really. Why is this? Is it because certain frequencies are prone to pumping more?

 

[Massive Master]

Without hearing it, I'd guess that they might be really wide and really loud.

When you bring a sound all the way to the sides, it doesn't "seem" to have as much energy as it would towards the center. Part of the whole "sonic space" equation... Anyway, they may be a bit too loud over the mix (or have overtones) which would make the compressors react to the guitars before the rest of the mix.

I would guess that if you pan the guitars in quite a bit, they tend to take over.

Again, could be wrong, just a guess.

 

[ecktronic]

You could be right in a way. It was two guitars both double tracked. I panned one guitar 100 left and 40 right. The other guitar 100 right and 40 left. The guitars could be a little louder than some CDs but they definetly arent overpowering the mix in any way.

Heres a sample of my mastering non-skills!
LIFESPAN
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/seratonescotlandmusic.htm

 

[Farview]

The distorted guitar sound is what is screwing up the mix. It is way too upper-midrangey. (there are no lower mids) This is unbalancing the mix and giving you your problem.

 

[heroics321]

they're very buzz saw-y... you didn't record them direct by any chance, did you? turn down the gain and flatten the eq, go from there. as farview said, don't be afraid of those lower mids, they provide much of the balls in music, especially guitars. it also sounds like you're boosting the overall highs... a lot of people do this because it seems like it makes things a lot clearer. don't, its not needed. what kind of monitors are you using?

 

[ecktronic]

I am boosting the master highs not the guitar highs though. I took alot of the guitar highs and lows away leaving mostly mids, and slightly boosted maybe 2dB at the hi mids. The guitars were recorded using a Marshall tube amp believe it or not. (57 and 58) I think the main problem is the guitar effects used. I used the Boss GT6 and its little brother (both guitar effect processors that may not be that good for distortion.)
I am monitoring at eh mixing stage on mackie 8204s? cant remember the exact number. I like the mackies. I am mastering on wait for it..... sennheiser hd200 headphones! I understand they aint good for mastering, but its all i have and i am comparing my masters with commercial cds at same volumes alot, so it aint that bad.

 

[Farview]

If you have a Marshall tube amp, why would you be using a distortion pedal? If your guitars are that screechy sounding, you have most likely burned your ears out (gotten used to that kind of scratchy, over done high end) to the point that you don't notice how out of balance the upper mids are. Once this sort of thing starts sounding normal to you, the whole mix is tilted toward the upper mids and goes down hill in a hurry.
Use the distortion that the amp gives you. If it isn't enough (it is, but you will think you need more) just use the output volume on the pedal to drive the amp harder, not the distortion.

 

[ecktronic]

Cheers Farview, i have been thinking about using the marshall distortion for quite a while actually, but never got round to trying it. Could pose some problems with my use of phasers, delays, mild distortions etc.
You heard the band, A perfect circle? That is the guitar tone i want. Do you know what amp he uses? Im thinking it could be a Marshall or maybe Orange.