lets talk cymbals

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dr.colossus

dr.colossus

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i broke my two favourite cymbals in the past week :( first my 22" zildjian jazz ride then last night my 20" sabian medium crash... on the brighter side i got to go cymbal shopping today! tried out a few...so far the two i have liked are a 16" med/thin k custom (but it didn't feel like it would last long with the way i play) and a 17" medium a custom... the "a" custom was a wierd one the retailer had most of the a custom range in and the 17" was darker and faster than the 18" and the 16" kinda a wierd one....
problem is there are only about 15 crashes for sale in the whole town so i haven't been able to listen to as many as i would like to (aax, z customs, hh)

i am after something (a crash) thats fast, fairly dark, not too loud but doesn't feel like its gonna break in five minutes, any suggestions
 
Okay, this is not a wise-ass answer to your problem, I'm serious. Whatever you do that breaks cymbals so quickly, stop doing that! Occassionally a cymbal will break, but if you're doing it all the time you're just hitting them way to hard or you have them seated way too tight on the stand.
Zildjian Custom K medium crash is pretty fast but real bright. Sabian's newer AA Metal-X is also fast enough but it's also bright. Bosphorous cymbals are just weird sounding, but they might work for you. The ones that I've tried have a strange attack, they're fast, dark and don't decay right away, they just sound weird. My favorite crashes are the Zildjian A medium light and the Paiste Signature, but they can be fragile if you continually wallop them. I have a Zildjian Custom K 19" medium crash that I think I could play with a hammer if I wanted to, but it's fairly bright. The old Paiste Formula 602's that were made in Switzerland fit the need you have, but you'll have to find used ones, Paiste stopped making that type a few years back. I still have two and they are my favorites. One is broken, but not from playing, but from slipping out of the cymbal bag and hitting concret steps going down to a gig. I still play it and it still has good sound.
Good luck.
 
thanks for the reply rimshot, i had one of these cymbals for about 6 yrs and the other for 3 (and they both date back to the 70's), i think it was just bad luck... the only paistes i found today were 502's(ewww)... but apart from that i have never really been a paiste fan (i'm not one of those psycho zil or sabian fans though) i will keep my eyes out for a 602, but second hand cymbals are rare where i live...
 
Rimshot said:
Okay, this is not a wise-ass answer to your problem, I'm serious. Whatever you do that breaks cymbals so quickly, stop doing that! Occassionally a cymbal will break, but if you're doing it all the time you're just hitting them way to hard or you have them seated way too tight on the stand.
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this may be arrogance talking, but i have found that beating the crap out of my drums is the only way to get the tone i want and need out of them
 
Whoa whoa fellas!

Look, I used to be a basher/breaker playing some pretty heavy/hardcore type music. Until I developed carpel tunnel syndrome in both of my wrists that is. Luckily, I saw a leading hand surgeon n my area who happened to also be a drummer, and he had some specific tips for me to follow which almost completely alleviated my symptoms:

• Play larger, louder, more sustaining cymbals or tell your band to turn down. "Overplaying" your cymbals comes from not being able to hear them or them not cutting thru the mix. Either way, you need to hear them. And if you're playing THAT loud, you need to invest in custom ear protectors (ala http://www.luebbehearing.com) or some in ear monitors (ala Shure PSM 200/400/700)
• Play smarter, not harder. A cymbal will only physically give off so much sound when struck. Playing any harder is just wearing you and the cymbal out prematurely. Use "swiping" motions from one side to the other instead of trying to play into or thru the cymbal. If you think about it, a cymbal will only move up and down so much on a stand until it hits the wing nut or the bottom of the washer. That resistance is not good. However, if you swipe the cym from side to side, you make the viration happen horizontally across the cymbals grooves, instead of vertically through the cross section to the bell.
• Try "bigger" sticks. (unless of course you're already using baseball bats, then try smaller?!?). I used to play 7A's when I developed CTS, and since switched to a longer, heavier stick (Vater PowerHouse!). Once I got used to throwing around more wood, I break less sticks and cymbals, I'm not as fatigued and I actually get more sound with less effort from my kit. Thicker, thicker, more dense sticks also tend to sound better in studio situations. Sound crazy, but let the stick do all the work...

Dude, seriously, if you are breaking 22" cymbals, you need to step down a notch. I know drummers who "get into" their music so much they break hoops, BD heads and even fott pedal boards in half because they think that makes the audience more hype... That's just nonsense...
 
yup, scary thing is i did "step down" a few months back, and am now playing very thoughtfully! and i know you didn't put those points up just for me, but the larger cymbal thing is a little hard when my smallest cymbal was a 20" :D

back to the original purpose of my post... i took my ride in to the music store yesterday to see how the "A" complemented it, well the answer is not very well at all... looks like i'll have to fork out the extra $$$$$$ for the"k" custom.. unless you guys have any ideas on something that is similar to a K... i haven't been able to try a Z, what are they like?
 
I played on 16" and 18" K Dark Thins, untill my 16" cracked, and I didn't want to spend $160 on a cymbal that I might crack again in a year, so I got a 16" AAX Dark Crash, which goes well with my 18" K, and cost only $120. I've only had it for a bit so I don't know how well it will hold up, but if ever I break the 18" K, I'll probably go with an 18" AAX Dark as a replacement, they are pretty nice sounding cymbals.
 
The new Z Customs are pretty nice. Less "manhole cover" sounding than the past 6-7 years worth of ZC's...

You know, one thing I also forgot to mention above is, having a different set of cyms for different purposes. OK, admittely, this can get costly. But with the advent of Ebay and musiciansfriend.com "Blem" section, you can score some decent cyms cheap sometimes.

I have an old set of cracked Paiste Signatures (with the cracks cut out and filed down) for band rehearsals, some nice signatures and A Custom Projections for studio use only and a mix between 2002's and signatures for live use only. This helps spread the love around...

I definitely think you learn an expensive lesson if you buy/break a bunch of K's. They might be too dark for your application and may lead to more of that "overplaying" situation as described above..

Good luck man!
 
from your descriptions it sounds like

the K custom line would fit your needs pretty well. They are dark but have lots of tone.
I would steer clear of the z's if I were you. They are just loud (what they were designed for) but in my opinion have very little tonal quality. On the other hand, you could prob put the beat down on them and they won't break for some time.
My drummer in my band has used and broke at least 4-5 cymbals from both the k and Z lines. The z's held up longer but sounded like krap on tape. The k's break real easy but sound really nice. What he finally ended up doing, was just playing on the broke cymbals for our band practice and then only bringing out his good set of K and A customs for recording/shows. Doing this has really cut back on the amount of cymbals he is breaking. Now the only problem is dodging the broken cymbal shratnel when hes beating the heck out of those old broke cymbals at practice.
 
I've had the same set of Paiste Rudes for years. It would take a sledge hammer to bust those babies.
I do wanna know however what line of cymbals have that long sustaining high pitch crash. The type that a lot of metal bands are using now. I've sampled some in stores and have'nt found that sound...maybe its in the mix...I dunno.
 
Stealthtech said:
I've had the same set of Paiste Rudes for years. It would take a sledge hammer to bust those babies.
I do wanna know however what line of cymbals have that long sustaining high pitch crash. The type that a lot of metal bands are using now. I've sampled some in stores and have'nt found that sound...maybe its in the mix...I dunno.
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I like the sound of Paiste Rudes, from what I've heard. I know Stewart Copeland was nuts about them, and I'm assuming that what you hear on Police albums. I always dug his cymbal sounds. Then I found out the former drummer from Cardiacs used them too--you can see the logo in their All That Glitters Is A Mare's Nest live video. I really like the sounds of the cymbals on that CD/vid.
 
Whoopysnorp said:
I like the sound of Paiste Rudes, from what I've heard. I know Stewart Copeland was nuts about them, and I'm assuming that what you hear on Police albums. I always dug his cymbal sounds. Then I found out the former drummer from Cardiacs used them too--you can see the logo in their All That Glitters Is A Mare's Nest live video. I really like the sounds of the cymbals on that CD/vid.
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I don't think that stew always used the rudes in the studio...only live - so you actually don't hear them on the records (though he may have used them in studio previous to 1984??)...

taken from a 1984 interview in Downbeat:

"Cymbally speaking, on-stage it's Formula 602 13-inch medium hi-hats (sans Sound Edge) and a 16-inch thin crash, two eight-inch 2002 bell cymbals, two eight and an 11-inch 2002 splashes, and RUDE 14-, 16-, and 22-inch crash-rides; in the studio Formula 2002 16- and 18-inch mediums, and a 22-inch 602 heavy ride replace the RUDES."

stew rules
 
pratt said:
I don't think that stew always used the rudes in the studio...only live - so you actually don't hear them on the records (though he may have used them in studio previous to 1984??)...

taken from a 1984 interview in Downbeat:

"Cymbally speaking, on-stage it's Formula 602 13-inch medium hi-hats (sans Sound Edge) and a 16-inch thin crash, two eight-inch 2002 bell cymbals, two eight and an 11-inch 2002 splashes, and RUDE 14-, 16-, and 22-inch crash-rides; in the studio Formula 2002 16- and 18-inch mediums, and a 22-inch 602 heavy ride replace the RUDES."

stew rules
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Ah. Never mind then. Stew does totally rule, though. Even if I were a really good drummer I don't think I could cop his style.

But I do know that Dominic Luckman from Cardiacs used Rudes, at least on Maresnest. Maybe on their other live albums as well (their studio albums all have fake drums). That sound really does work well for their style of music (fast, intense, and complex).
 
Stealthtech said:
I've had the same set of Paiste Rudes for years. It would take a sledge hammer to bust those babies.
I do wanna know however what line of cymbals have that long sustaining high pitch crash. The type that a lot of metal bands are using now. I've sampled some in stores and have'nt found that sound...maybe its in the mix...I dunno.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of modern heavy / rock bands are using medium weight cyms like A Custom Projections, Z Custom Mediums, Regular A's, Sabian AA/AAX, Paiste 2002/Sigs on recordings.

That long, sustaining, higher pitch sound comes from a cymbal that is generally smaller in size (14" - 18"), has a more uniform lathe (i.e. not heavily hammered or hand hammered) and is medium to heavy in weight. Yes, the EQing and mix will help color that sound too, so don't kill yourself trying to chase around a specific sound...
 
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