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Sage97
New member
You guys are too kind.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Dogman
Unkle Ticklefingers
Sage97 said:
Not too kind, just too COOL!!!
Ed
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Sage97
New member
I listened to your classical playing and MAN, I wish I play half as good as you do. I can listen to you all day long.Timothy Lawler said:
Master Lawler you are but be carefull with what you say around here! I just might believe you.
I really need to get serious with taking lessons.
How much do you charge?
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Sage97
New member
You got that right, Dogman!Dogman said:Not too kind, just too COOL!!!
Ed
A newb question. What exactly does phrasing mean?
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Holy crap! I know exactly what this means and now...BLLEEEAAOOOEEEYY!!! Can't think of how to describe it! (kinda like describing the color "blue"!) I'm gonna go have a cigarette while I'm feeling stupid.Sage97 said:
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Ah, much better. And good question, by the way...one that others here might have a different answer to. But here's my take on it: Think of phrasing as "the execution on various notes in a sequence". Not too much different than describing the word "phrase" to be used as "part of a sentence". Some of this would involve picking technique--do you pick every note, or do you utilize hammer ons and pull offs to get your musical point across? Do you simply play the "note that hits home" or do you slide up to it and give it a good vibrato shake? Do you use a bend to get yourself to the next note that you want to be at or do you just move your fingers and play the thing? How long do you hold out that note? etc. etc. We could also be talking about the arrangement of the notes in a solo. Is is "scaly" or is it more musical sounding? In that aspect, think David Gilmour's phrasing (which always sounds like a song in itself) versus Yngwie's phrasing (which is always a flurried scale designed to finally get you to the one note that he wants you to hear.) Maybe somebody could chime in with a better explanation. (Tim? Tim? Where are you? )
)
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Sage97
New member
Purge, your explanation is excellent for me. It's clear and to the point. Now I get it. Thank you very much. I admire Gilmour's song in itself technique. Malmsteen's is amazingly fast and there's now way my ears can catch up. I really should learn scales.
Do you mind clarifying "rhythm" as well? Does it pertain to the beat (similar to strumming where you pause and speed up and do up/down strokes) or does it mean something different when playing lead?
By the way, I stayed up all night reading the previous thread on the rumble that mshilarious posted. I have never laughed so hard by myself! Funny stuff.
My personal favorite is the "Smoke on Water" solo. Nothing short of ceative genius!
At the same time, I was floored by the extreme talents of a lot of people here. Wow! I'd probably quit my day job and die happy if I could play that well!
Who among you play music full time? Tim perhaps?
Do you mind clarifying "rhythm" as well? Does it pertain to the beat (similar to strumming where you pause and speed up and do up/down strokes) or does it mean something different when playing lead?
By the way, I stayed up all night reading the previous thread on the rumble that mshilarious posted. I have never laughed so hard by myself! Funny stuff.
My personal favorite is the "Smoke on Water" solo. Nothing short of ceative genius!
At the same time, I was floored by the extreme talents of a lot of people here. Wow! I'd probably quit my day job and die happy if I could play that well!
Who among you play music full time? Tim perhaps?
X
XLR
______
Phrasing
I think Purge described it well.
A harmony textbook might describe phrasing by defining particular harmonic progressions that occur to give closure to a passage. But that doesn't work in all music.
For me the most practical approach is to think of phrasing in comparison to language. It's just hearing sounds grouped in sequences that make some kind of sense in how they start, develop and end, but the idea can be approached simply or taken to analytical extremes. And related to that, the subtle things we do with our voices that give expression to what we say are pretty similar to the things we do in music. Rhythmic articulation, rise and fall of volume, pauses, rushing, knowing when to use a sweet tone and when to talk dirty (Heh-heh).
Wind players and singers maybe have and advantage in developing a sense of phrasing because they have to fit their breaths into the lines they do. If a guitarist sings the lines they play when they practice, it tends to develop a natural sense of phrasing the same way.
Somebody earlier, I think it was Insightnsound, talked about humming their lines while they were working on their house, then going to the studio and playing what they had been hearing. I think that's the kind of musical thought that builds good phrasing in a natural way. In music education research it's called audiation - thinking in musical sounds without having to hear them externally.
Oops -- sorry for the lecture...
Tim
I think Purge described it well.
A harmony textbook might describe phrasing by defining particular harmonic progressions that occur to give closure to a passage. But that doesn't work in all music.
For me the most practical approach is to think of phrasing in comparison to language. It's just hearing sounds grouped in sequences that make some kind of sense in how they start, develop and end, but the idea can be approached simply or taken to analytical extremes. And related to that, the subtle things we do with our voices that give expression to what we say are pretty similar to the things we do in music. Rhythmic articulation, rise and fall of volume, pauses, rushing, knowing when to use a sweet tone and when to talk dirty (Heh-heh).
Wind players and singers maybe have and advantage in developing a sense of phrasing because they have to fit their breaths into the lines they do. If a guitarist sings the lines they play when they practice, it tends to develop a natural sense of phrasing the same way.
Somebody earlier, I think it was Insightnsound, talked about humming their lines while they were working on their house, then going to the studio and playing what they had been hearing. I think that's the kind of musical thought that builds good phrasing in a natural way. In music education research it's called audiation - thinking in musical sounds without having to hear them externally.
Oops -- sorry for the lecture...
Tim
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Sage97
New member
Timothy Lawler said:
That's what I do. I stink at scales so I sing what I want to play then try to play it.
I'm an audiator! Hasta la vista, baby!
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
That's actually a great approach to guitar playing. Doing that will cause anything you play to sound more memorable. Back to the Gilmour and Malmsteen thing...both are great players, but I can sing an entire Gilmour solo because the melody is just that "sticky". Malmsteen? Not in a million years. It's impressive for what it is, but I don't usually feel his stuff. That being said, I highly recommend learning scales. The different modes are a great jumping-off point for learning what notes to play to achieve a certain mood. It's really as simple as the idea that a minor chord will give you a sadder feeling than a major chord will...and then it goes on from there.Sage97 said:
(Glad you liked the Smoke On The Water solo.
I had a lot of fun playing like an asshole!)Rhythm...okay, let's see. This example will basically involve playing notes that are all the same length. (kinda the opposite of phrasing, where I suppose the desired effect is to change things around to achieve feeling...that's pretty generalized, so just ignore that.
) Let's say you have a slow steady 4 count: 1...2...3...4. Your rhythm might involve how many notes you choose to throw in during each beat. Quarter notes would sound exactly like the count above. Eighth notes would have a note thrown in between as an addition: 1.and.2.and.3.and.4.and. Next up, you've got triplets: 1.da.da.2.da.da.3.da.da.4.da.da. And so on and so forth. Guitarists are generally pre-disposed to playing triplets in their solos (at first) because when they initially begin learning scales, it's pretty easy to note that most of these scales will have 3 notes per string. Makes their "phrasing" easier, where they're not having to change strings in the middle of each sequence of notes. Make sense?
Dogman
Unkle Ticklefingers
Well, I think Purge and Tim answered those questions rather nicely. Phrasing may be a term I used without knowing exactly what it means, other than in the context I had in my mind. But, what they said is more or less how I used it, so I guess I wasn't too far off base. Thanks guys.
I really like the analogy Purge used comparing Gilmoure and Malmsteen. But I'll go more "In the neighborhood". Tim's playing didn't seem to have any "filler" notes. In my opinion, every note he played had a particular place. I think if he changed some notes, his whole idea would be different. On the other hand, I am a rythum guitarist, and don't actually know a scale. I know what sounds I want, but usually can't play them, as I am self taught. So my "solo" has starting and stopping notes I know I want, and I had to fill spots up with random notes that sounded like they fit. This means I had lots of notes that could be played different, or simply taken out, without changing what I played very much. May even help, as I know there are many bloopers. I know, lengthy, and rambling, but this is a fun way to get many different people together for some fun, and musical discussion. So, thanks for playing.
Ed
I really like the analogy Purge used comparing Gilmoure and Malmsteen. But I'll go more "In the neighborhood". Tim's playing didn't seem to have any "filler" notes. In my opinion, every note he played had a particular place. I think if he changed some notes, his whole idea would be different. On the other hand, I am a rythum guitarist, and don't actually know a scale. I know what sounds I want, but usually can't play them, as I am self taught. So my "solo" has starting and stopping notes I know I want, and I had to fill spots up with random notes that sounded like they fit. This means I had lots of notes that could be played different, or simply taken out, without changing what I played very much. May even help, as I know there are many bloopers. I know, lengthy, and rambling, but this is a fun way to get many different people together for some fun, and musical discussion. So, thanks for playing.
Ed
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Kainz
New member
I was going to answer to that "phrasing" question, but it seems to have answered quite good enough 
Here are some of my thoughts anyway.
I think phrasing is maby the most important part of a everyone's "own sound". And it can be practiced somewhat too. I think the first step would be to learn how to let your solos "breathe". Make a good sentences with dots and spaces and paragraphs and so on. Don'tletyoursolocomeoutlikethis! I think you all get the idea. Let it breathe! It sounds more natural that way. Compare it for example to talking. No matter how fancy words you use, you can't be very expressive if you talk like a robot. So take a break and inhale! I think this is the easiest part to understand when practising phrasing (and often the one most young players don't seem to notice until you point it out for them).
I like to think that phrasing is all about small nuances, tempo variations, accents, slight vibratos, bends... the list goes on. Basically anything that doesn't sound like some old Sibelius notation sofware has some phrasing in it. Phrasing makes the solo/song breathe and creates the mood. You can play same things happily, sadly, strongly.. Try it! It is fun and teaches you alot
And what it comes to singing what you play and other way around. Nothing can be more educative that doing that. For example I can play just about anything I hear 99% correct at the first try. I could write even notes from it. Well not some 4 min song right after listened it first time in my life; I can't remeber it long enough hehe.
I usually practise this with the radio. Just open any channel you know has some music going, then just switch your amp on and play along. You don't need to know the tune, when you play alot you develope a sense; you just know what is coming. But this really needs good ear/instrument "coordination". I have trained this quite much so that I actually "have the time" to think even the chords and melodies (as notes) at the same time I'm playing along. You need to do your theory thingies too to achieve something like this. So go practising! Just be the rhythm guitarist for the first verse and chorus, then play some solos over next parts and switch again. It is fun and educative
One of the most important things when "ear traingin" is the ability to know how intervals sound. You need to know how eg. 2nd degree sounds agains a minor triad, or how it sounds against major triad. And eventually how that #11 sounds against that nasty 9b5#11 chord. This way you can immediately regognize the melody note's interaction with the chord. This opens you to understand the different "moods" of all scales, chords and intervalls.
For example in my solo I finished it at the 2nd (or 9th) degree of that a-minor scale/chord. It gives very mellow and a bit jazzy feel to it. And when I soloed, I didn't "think it" or planned actively. When I solo I just close my eyes and play. I try to get as much emotion there as I can (usually emotions that the song wakes in me and/or the emotions the song "needs"; happy for happy and so on). I try to translate the feelings the song wakes in me into a solo. And when I have studied all those scales and chords and sounds and their feels and... Eventually I have great "vocabilary" where to solo from. This could maby be compared for example some rap artist who is rapping "live", he has to come up with all those nice rhymes in real time. If he has a good enough vocabilary and he knows how to use it, he may pull out some really impressive stuff. Just the same when soloing. When you lear your "theory" (and somewhat technics too) it gives you a great vocabilary to play from. You will find that different scales/chords/tones correspond some feelings. Like majors is happy - minor is sad, but muuuch more deeper.
Here are some of my thoughts anyway.
I think phrasing is maby the most important part of a everyone's "own sound". And it can be practiced somewhat too. I think the first step would be to learn how to let your solos "breathe". Make a good sentences with dots and spaces and paragraphs and so on. Don'tletyoursolocomeoutlikethis! I think you all get the idea. Let it breathe! It sounds more natural that way. Compare it for example to talking. No matter how fancy words you use, you can't be very expressive if you talk like a robot. So take a break and inhale! I think this is the easiest part to understand when practising phrasing (and often the one most young players don't seem to notice until you point it out for them).
I like to think that phrasing is all about small nuances, tempo variations, accents, slight vibratos, bends... the list goes on. Basically anything that doesn't sound like some old Sibelius notation sofware has some phrasing in it. Phrasing makes the solo/song breathe and creates the mood. You can play same things happily, sadly, strongly.. Try it! It is fun and teaches you alot
And what it comes to singing what you play and other way around. Nothing can be more educative that doing that. For example I can play just about anything I hear 99% correct at the first try. I could write even notes from it. Well not some 4 min song right after listened it first time in my life; I can't remeber it long enough hehe.
I usually practise this with the radio. Just open any channel you know has some music going, then just switch your amp on and play along. You don't need to know the tune, when you play alot you develope a sense; you just know what is coming. But this really needs good ear/instrument "coordination". I have trained this quite much so that I actually "have the time" to think even the chords and melodies (as notes) at the same time I'm playing along. You need to do your theory thingies too to achieve something like this. So go practising! Just be the rhythm guitarist for the first verse and chorus, then play some solos over next parts and switch again. It is fun and educative
One of the most important things when "ear traingin" is the ability to know how intervals sound. You need to know how eg. 2nd degree sounds agains a minor triad, or how it sounds against major triad. And eventually how that #11 sounds against that nasty 9b5#11 chord. This way you can immediately regognize the melody note's interaction with the chord. This opens you to understand the different "moods" of all scales, chords and intervalls.
For example in my solo I finished it at the 2nd (or 9th) degree of that a-minor scale/chord. It gives very mellow and a bit jazzy feel to it. And when I soloed, I didn't "think it" or planned actively. When I solo I just close my eyes and play. I try to get as much emotion there as I can (usually emotions that the song wakes in me and/or the emotions the song "needs"; happy for happy and so on). I try to translate the feelings the song wakes in me into a solo. And when I have studied all those scales and chords and sounds and their feels and... Eventually I have great "vocabilary" where to solo from. This could maby be compared for example some rap artist who is rapping "live", he has to come up with all those nice rhymes in real time. If he has a good enough vocabilary and he knows how to use it, he may pull out some really impressive stuff. Just the same when soloing. When you lear your "theory" (and somewhat technics too) it gives you a great vocabilary to play from. You will find that different scales/chords/tones correspond some feelings. Like majors is happy - minor is sad, but muuuch more deeper.
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Sage97
New member
Kainz said:
Thanks Kainz.
Your solo is one of my faves. It reminds me of a Chris Isaac (spelling?) song. Very soulful and full of feel. Wish I can play like that with my eyes closed.
I am printing your whole response so I can go to triads, scales, intervals and the other things you're talking about. Now I'll really need a teacher for these. Any of you guys live in West Texas?
K
Kainz
New member
Sage97 said:
Thanks!
Yeah, teacher is good. Allthou anyway it is mostly just you doing the job. In a classical music the teaching part is quite relevant because you need to have the right technic and such. But in a pop/rock/jazz/whatever-world the teacher isn't that must to have. Infact, more players out there with different techniques, more we have different sounds and phrasing.
The music theory is overall quite simple. It is just few things to understand at first and then the rest will make sense. Trust me
So what I'm trying to say is that having a teacher isn't that important at all. More important is you and your motivation. You can always get some basic theory books from library and read them. Thats what I did. I have never been in any guitar/theory class. Well..to be honest actually I have been in alot of them, but as a teacher hehe.. uhm yea.. eh..
I learned through playing and reading and doing some exercises I developed for myself. And ofcourse by studying/analyzing/listening(!) great guitarists (Stevie Ray Vaughan(!!), Larry Carlton, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Van Halen, Steve Vai, Chuck Loeb, John Scofield, George Benson... Could carry on this for a day!).
I used to practise like 5h in a day. I just loved to play. Infact it wasn't really practising, it was fun!
. And I must be somewhat weird but I loved the music theory too! All those scales and sounds.. yummm. Doesn't it just make you want to learn them? No...? ..oh well hehe
Nowadays I don't practise that much anyomore.. allthou I should
. But I play quite alot still. I have usually 2-3 "gigs" to play in a week (live or in studio or something) + all the teaching I do (btw nice way to keep your edge sharp).So definitely get a techer if you can (but get a good one!
), but it isn't really that important. Eventually you are the one doing the job. Teacher may point out things for you and so, but one good method that indeed works is to record yourself alot! Then listen: "I did sound like THAT, horrible! Maaan.. I thought I was playing just like Yngwie..." hehe Have a good one! (huh?)
X
XLR
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Sage97, I managed a community music school for a number of years so feel strongly about what makes a good teacher successful with their students.
I think for anyone taking music lessons there are a few questions they should periodically ask themselves that can help determine if the teaching is really helping them. 1) Do I look forward to each lesson, or do I have to make myself go? 2) Is each lesson actually a musical experience and do I usually feel good about my playing when I leave a lesson? 3) Does the teacher have an overall lesson strategy they've worked out with me - a road map of where we're going? 4) Is the teacher direct about what it takes on the student's part regarding practice organization to have the lessons be successful?
Good teachers structure the lesson content so a person can handle the challenges and successfully build their skills step by step. They do lesson activities with the student that ease them into new skills and make the lessons musical, not just academic or a weekly test. Most importantly they set a personal tone that makes the student feel welcome and that their music making is valuable.
Excellent teachers are not necessarily the most impressive performers but they should be able to play well, sound good, and demonstrate easily anything the student will be learning.
Good luck with it.
Tim
I think for anyone taking music lessons there are a few questions they should periodically ask themselves that can help determine if the teaching is really helping them. 1) Do I look forward to each lesson, or do I have to make myself go? 2) Is each lesson actually a musical experience and do I usually feel good about my playing when I leave a lesson? 3) Does the teacher have an overall lesson strategy they've worked out with me - a road map of where we're going? 4) Is the teacher direct about what it takes on the student's part regarding practice organization to have the lessons be successful?
Good teachers structure the lesson content so a person can handle the challenges and successfully build their skills step by step. They do lesson activities with the student that ease them into new skills and make the lessons musical, not just academic or a weekly test. Most importantly they set a personal tone that makes the student feel welcome and that their music making is valuable.
Excellent teachers are not necessarily the most impressive performers but they should be able to play well, sound good, and demonstrate easily anything the student will be learning.
Good luck with it.
Tim
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Sage97
New member
Great advice, guys. I'm taking this all in by heart. Thanks very much.
I've already started asking around and it seems like my son's ex-teacher (he'd rather play basketball than the guitar for now) is one of the most highly recommended in my area. I'll check out another one and will make a decision soon.
I've already started asking around and it seems like my son's ex-teacher (he'd rather play basketball than the guitar for now) is one of the most highly recommended in my area. I'll check out another one and will make a decision soon.
X
XLR
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Kainz, are you located in Finland?
Tim
Tim
K
Kainz
New member
Timothy Lawler said:
I think so, unless someone kidnapped me during last night and threw me in egypt
.
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
Wow, my little thread sure has grown.... 
K
Kainz
New member
Rokket said:Wow, my little thread sure has grown....
Hehe
3rd one out soon?