Kick mic direction/advice, please?

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pointfive

New member
I'm looking to purchase a kick mic. I've searched the board and read all the related posts I could find, and as a result of that research, and the budget I have (~$100), I've pretty much narrowed it to two choices. Either a CAD KBM412, or a Blue Kickball. (I'd most like to get an Audix D6 but I can't afford it right now.)

My band does indie rock/shoegazer type stuff. The last demo we recorded turned out pretty well; but the kick was still less distinct that I wanted. For kick, we used a mix of signals coming from a Yamaha Subkick and an SM57. I feel like the 57 was the weak link here; that with a better kick mic, we could have made it more distinct. (If you think I'm wrong here, please let me know.)

Here's the result:


So my question is this: For my style of music, do you have advice about which of the above mics to buy? I've read that the KBM412 has good low end, but doesn't do attack well. That doesn't sound like what I need. I can't find a whole lot of info on the Kickball, but it seems to be priced right. I'm just not sure.

Thanks!
 
hey, i listened to the mp3 and i really liked it.
i used to have a kbm412, and I always thought it was decent, but not exactly the sound i wanted. It sounded like how you described,a LOT of low end, but not much attack. I recently replaced it with an audix f12, which I regret alot, because it lacks so much low end. I record mostly indie type stuff, and now i realize how well the kbm suited my recordings. If you are looking for that clicky type metal kick sound I wouldnt go with the cad, but otherwise it's a really decent mic for the money.
 
How are you positioning the SM57. What kind of beater are you using. Both will make a huge difference in the amount of attack. (I haven't listened to the clip, no mp3's at work :( )
 
i recently purchased the kickball and its a very usefull kick drum mic. its got the three way active circuit boost/cut and ive been able to get good tones out of it for anything. but i have never used the cad so im just putting in my two cents. good luck!

-matthew
 
No experience with the mics mentioned but I ended up with a good bottom end with good click/attack by loosening my beater head to where it was just barely tight, using a plastic mallet and then putting my mic about 3 inches away (inside) and angled towards the beater. Oh, and I use a reso head....

fwiw....
 
I use a CAD KBM412. It does have considerable low end, and I increase the 'snap' by fiddling with the distance between it and the beater. It works for me just fine.

It's good on double-bass as well!
 
A 57 and a subkick should work just fine.
I listened to the mp3, the kick sounds really far away. Do you have a hole in the front head? Do you have the kick stuffed with pillows? The hi-hat is louder than the kick, and the kick sounds like it's coming throught the overheads. You might get more attack if you turn it up.
 
I agree with Farview here. I'm not really hearing any attack in the mp3. There may simply be a problem with the mix. The SM57 should give you plenty of attack and if anything maybe lacking in low end. It wouldn't really work by itself as a kick mic, but together with a subkick it should be alright.

This all depends on how you placed the mic, of course.

You could also try to add some "point" to the kick by boosting somewhere around 2-5kHz if you have lots of volume but still aren't hearing attack. But try adjusting the levels first.
 
Thank you all for the feedback and advice. Whenever I ask a question here I always get really helpful responses. I really appreciate it! Now to answer some of your questions:

reshp1: I positioned the 57 about 4-6" away from the beater, an inch or two to the right. The beater is felt/cloth (I'm not a drummer so I don't know if I'm using the right term, but it wasn't wooden or plastic, just cloth all the way around).

Farview: We removed the front head altogether for this recording. We had a pillow in the head (it was way too "boomy" and resonant without it), but we took a good amount of time placing it to make sure it didn't deaden the sound too much. It was only resting against the beater head a tiny bit.

I think those of you who said the problem could be solved with the mix are probably right. At the time, though, when I brought up the level of the 57 I felt like I was getting other unwanted sound. Part of the challenge for us is that all our recording equipment and instruments are in the same room, so it's tough to get drum levels. I get a vague idea by listening through headphones, then we'll record a few test takes, listen to them through monitors, and tweak. It's very time consuming and feels very inexact. Also, we're recording to an 8-track (DA-38) through a 2-bus mixer (Mackie 1402VLZ), so we're just recording a stereo image of the drums (a mix of 4 mics, usually), not tracking each mic separately. I'll keep the advice you've all given me in mind for next time, though. I think it'll really help. Any more pointers would be welcome of course!

Thanks again!
 
You will never get any attack on the kick playing with a felt beater (especially if he isn't a heavy hitter). You should put the 57 1 or 2 inches off the batter head. This might help isolate it enough so you can turn it up in the mix. You will need to take out some 400hz on the 57 to make it sound right. (ymmv) The drummer might have to make an effort to hit the drum hard enough to make it speak the way that it should.
 
pointfive said:
Also, we're recording to an 8-track (DA-38) through a 2-bus mixer (Mackie 1402VLZ), so we're just recording a stereo image of the drums (a mix of 4 mics, usually), not tracking each mic separately.

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

The 1402 is a 4-buss mixer. Left and Right Main and Left and Right Aux. (Pan things hard left and hard right to achieve this.) You could also record out of the inserts on each mic channel. You could get 10 seperate channels out of that thing. Also you could use the aux sends in a pinch, or maybe just to monitor. If the mixer is what was making you sub mix the drums two 2 channels you just weren't using your equipment to it's fullest potential. RTFM!
Seperating your tracks will go a long way to give you the sound you want.
 
Or better yet

just get the drummer to get a different beater. Easier said than done, I know. But unless you're hearing it live the way you like it, and you just can't seem to capture it, you're trying to capture something that really just isn't there to begin with. I'm not saying you can't approximate it, but if you're doing live to stereo, it's surely going to be difficult to do. How about going sep channels on each mic on the drums live, and then going back and bouncing those down to stereo, then redoing the other parts live to the drum track? You will of course have to minimize bleed, but it's kind of how we used to do things back in the day. Just another option. Personally, if the only problem you have is the attack on the beater, he just needs a different one, if only for recording.

Good luck and be sure to post as to how it turns out.
 
Oh, yeah

what James said. Duh!

I assumed there weren't direct outs on that mixer. I know, you shouldn't assume...

But still get the drummer to switch beaters. Hey, you're in this together, and everybody's got to do their part.
 
a quick glance through the posts I didn't see if you'd done much checking to make sure the phase was correct. this can seriously fuck any drum that gets into 2 or more mics... I always gate/strip silence like a mofo and am really careful especially with centering the snare in the oh's.
 
wesley tanner said:
a quick glance through the posts I didn't see if you'd done much checking to make sure the phase was correct. this can seriously fuck any drum that gets into 2 or more mics... I always gate/strip silence like a mofo and am really careful especially with centering the snare in the oh's.
Click to expand...
Good point!
 
I suspected it was a felt beater. Easiest way (and maybe only way in your case) to get more attack is switching beaters and getting more attack from the source. DW makes a good combo beater that has different surfaces so the drummer doesn't have to keep changing them out, just rotate the "stem" and you're good to go. It even comes with a locking collar so the stem length will always be the same. Drummers tend to like that sorta thing. ;)

If the mics are on opposite sides of the bass drum, one of them should have it's phase flipped. I like to align everything to my overheads, and in the case of the kick drum, you can usually visually see if the phase is flipped or not compared to the overhead if you zoom way in on the waveform (assuming you're using a computer). Generally, if your OH mics are on the inside of the kit, over the drummer's head, the beater side kick mic is fine, and the front side kick mic needs to be reversed. If the OH mics are on the outside/front of the kick then the beater side mic generally needs to be phase flipped. There might be some nudging of the tracks to get them time aligned too.
 
If it wasn't a cassette 8-track, he might be able to nudge the tracks in time, but alas...

I just looked over the posts again. Lose the subkick for now. Without a front head, it wont work the same and that is what is picking up all the ambient noise from the other instruments. That might be the cause of your phase problems (assuming you have any). You said you were using 4 mics on the drums, did that mean: 57 in the kick, subkick, and two overheads? You would be better off losing the subkick and finding another 57 for the snare. That way you could turn the overheads down so the hi-hat doesn't take over the universe anymore.
 
Farview said:
If it wasn't a cassette 8-track, he might be able to nudge the tracks in time, but alas...
Click to expand...

Oh wah! People are so fricking spoiled by digital editing nowadays, I remember the days where engineers had to make everything phase coherent by using the propagation delay of electricity, using different length cables. Can't nudge tracks because he's on a cassette 8-track, give me a break. :rolleyes:




















:D
 
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