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ausgrindslaught
New member
You know what I mean. When a drummer cant actually play whats on the recording. It's a grindcore taboo. It is a great tool however.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
It's grindcore. Nobody gives a shit if the kick is consistant in grindcore.
This whole thread is a an AxCx song title.
G.
This whole thread is a an AxCx song title.
G.
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ausgrindslaught
New member
Haha. FINE. Then I FUCKING CARE. Better?
Seriously though, here in Aus drummers get heaps of shit if they 'fairy tap' or trigger.
Seriously though, here in Aus drummers get heaps of shit if they 'fairy tap' or trigger.
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Fartnokker
New member
Badassagog
Okay, just my two cents worth, but I've been a drummer for nearly 30 years. Not bragging, but I've played in big venues for up to 10,000 people, and recorded a buttload of albums for many people. I'm known in some circles as a really quick tracker, lotsa one-takes.
Point is (besides the one on top of my head!) I think Drumagog is possibly the greatest thing I've ever seen, next to PC-based recording. It isn't quantization, programming, or other "cheat" methods I've seen. Anyone who doesn't think that sample triggering doesn't appear on 95+% of major-label albums is naive. Every hit is exactly where the drummer put it originally, so the part is 100% "for real."
Triggering samples, and mixing them in with the original sound or totally replacing the original sound, is akin to a guitar player playing thru a bunch of effects. If you take an electric guitar with no processing whatsoever except dynamics and a little EQ, every guitar track will sound like an acoustic guitar. It is widely accepted that distortion, chorus, harmonizers, exciters, and other effects render the "authentic" sound of the guitar completely unrecognizable, but nobody questions whether the performance should be considered genuine as a result.
In either case, what you are hearing is what was played, with the sound changed in to something completely different from what the actual instrument is acoustically producing. Anyway, that's just one old, experienced drummer's perspective.
Okay, just my two cents worth, but I've been a drummer for nearly 30 years. Not bragging, but I've played in big venues for up to 10,000 people, and recorded a buttload of albums for many people. I'm known in some circles as a really quick tracker, lotsa one-takes.
Point is (besides the one on top of my head!) I think Drumagog is possibly the greatest thing I've ever seen, next to PC-based recording. It isn't quantization, programming, or other "cheat" methods I've seen. Anyone who doesn't think that sample triggering doesn't appear on 95+% of major-label albums is naive. Every hit is exactly where the drummer put it originally, so the part is 100% "for real."
Triggering samples, and mixing them in with the original sound or totally replacing the original sound, is akin to a guitar player playing thru a bunch of effects. If you take an electric guitar with no processing whatsoever except dynamics and a little EQ, every guitar track will sound like an acoustic guitar. It is widely accepted that distortion, chorus, harmonizers, exciters, and other effects render the "authentic" sound of the guitar completely unrecognizable, but nobody questions whether the performance should be considered genuine as a result.
In either case, what you are hearing is what was played, with the sound changed in to something completely different from what the actual instrument is acoustically producing. Anyway, that's just one old, experienced drummer's perspective.
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Fartnokker
New member
One more thing...
I forgot to mention that I'm widely known as a gorilla with drumsticks; when I'm playing rock music, I hit really, really hard. No "fairy taps" to be found. I don't consider triggering as a crutch for lack of power, or whatever other half-cocked assault on my ever so mighty manhood is intended!
People who rag on other's use of technology in music usually do so from ignorance, insecurity, or pure idiocy. That's not an assault on anyone, just a general observation. Picture the band of wide-eyed cavemen hooting and pounding their chests when the first of their peers decided to cook his food over fire. What a wuss!
I forgot to mention that I'm widely known as a gorilla with drumsticks; when I'm playing rock music, I hit really, really hard. No "fairy taps" to be found. I don't consider triggering as a crutch for lack of power, or whatever other half-cocked assault on my ever so mighty manhood is intended!
People who rag on other's use of technology in music usually do so from ignorance, insecurity, or pure idiocy. That's not an assault on anyone, just a general observation. Picture the band of wide-eyed cavemen hooting and pounding their chests when the first of their peers decided to cook his food over fire. What a wuss!
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ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
Another point in catching out "fake" drums is the timing. If everything is bang on then it can soudn a bit fake with no feeling to it. No pushing or pulling the beat, just always bang on!
Is there a humanize setting in Drumagog?
Eck
Is there a humanize setting in Drumagog?
Eck
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Ironklad Audio
New member
yea, but when it comes down to it, if the gear/room/know-how/whatever aren't available from an engineering-standpoint to make the stuff truly kick ass, then you have to do what you have to do. these conversations remind me of morbid angel, who HAVE to use samples, because the guy plays his double kick so fast that it's impossible to mic it properly...the heads resonate too much/too fast for a microphone to give an accurate representation of what's being played and heard in the room...without sampling, his performance is being robbed, which is only going to be self-destructive if their albums hit the shelf with a shitty kick.
the beauty of drumagog, like stated above, is that it still gives an accurate representation of the actual performance...you're just replacing a shitty sound with a not-shitty one
my personal preference is to take a bunch of samples of the actual drums that are being replaced prior to starting the session, so that you're still hearing that particular drummer and kit, in the same room and through a similar signal chain as the rest of the kit. this way whatever's picked up in the OH's and other mics will roughly match the sound of the samples.
and ecktronic...no, there isn't a humanize setting, because the samples are triggered whenever the drummer hits the drum. if the drummer plays out of time, so does drumagog. there is a "dynamic tracking" function, however, which determines how closely the sample fits the envelope of the original performance. at 0%, you get 100% machine gun sample - at 100, it sounds almost identical to the original sound(in terms of dynamics, at least). i personally find myself usually setting it between 85-90%, so that i can maintain the individual aspects of the performance, but still get the punch/consistency of the samples.
Farview
Well-known member
Drumagog just replaces the sound of the hits. It doesn't change the timing at all. Every hit is exactly where the drummer put it, good or bad.ecktronic said:
sweetnubs
New member
Farview said:
Oh how i long for the 40's again. Musicians playing together in a room to two track and everything sounds fine. I'm listening to Out to Lunch by Eric Dolphy right now recorded by Rudy Van Gelder and it sounds absolutely amazing. Drumagog, fucking hilarious!
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
Yeah I got a bit confused there! I waws thinking of sequencer prgrammmes like Fruity Loops for some strange reason!Farview said:
Eck
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Cat Daddy
New member
recording drums
Nothing is more sressful than a drummers' first time in the studio. No other instrument requires as much out of the musician as getting a consistent acoustic drum track. With toms, cymbals, kick and snare to contend with, it can be a nightmare to hear that first playback. When we recorded our first demos "back in the day" the producer watched the meters, and By GOD my snare hits had better peak the same every time. Needless to say, they didn't, and what a long day I had! How do you get that experience if you're a drummer? Buy a cheap daw - there's tons of them out there - and a couple mics and record yourself. Don't worry about fidelity, just as long as you can clearly hear what you're doing. You will hear yourself loud in some parts of the song, quiet in others. That's how you learn the art of dynamics. Practice, practice, practice, and when you get in the studio, you will have a better understanding of how to record a drum track. Oh, and by the way, it ain't ever perfect - not in ROCK any way! It's the grease that makes the wheels go!
Get after it, and WHACK THEM THINGS HARD!!!!!!!!!
Nothing is more sressful than a drummers' first time in the studio. No other instrument requires as much out of the musician as getting a consistent acoustic drum track. With toms, cymbals, kick and snare to contend with, it can be a nightmare to hear that first playback. When we recorded our first demos "back in the day" the producer watched the meters, and By GOD my snare hits had better peak the same every time. Needless to say, they didn't, and what a long day I had! How do you get that experience if you're a drummer? Buy a cheap daw - there's tons of them out there - and a couple mics and record yourself. Don't worry about fidelity, just as long as you can clearly hear what you're doing. You will hear yourself loud in some parts of the song, quiet in others. That's how you learn the art of dynamics. Practice, practice, practice, and when you get in the studio, you will have a better understanding of how to record a drum track. Oh, and by the way, it ain't ever perfect - not in ROCK any way! It's the grease that makes the wheels go!
Get after it, and WHACK THEM THINGS HARD!!!!!!!!!
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
Good advice man. I agree totally.
Also, drummers should practice to a click track as much as possible.This makes going into a studio cheaper as the tracsk can be layed faster.
Eck
Also, drummers should practice to a click track as much as possible.This makes going into a studio cheaper as the tracsk can be layed faster.
Eck
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Cat Daddy
New member
The Click Is Our Friend
Exactly right. Learn to love that click. Buy yourself a drum machine - or use the guitar players drum machine on his pedalboard, or the keyboard players drum sequencer. Set up a straight drumbeat - kick, snare, hihat. Burn a cd, and play along to it. When you get in the studio, if you are playing to prerecorded tracks with that Godawful quarter note cowbell for a click, ask the engineer to set you up a drum machine pattern with hihat, kick and snare - or eights on the hihat, anything to help that quarter note flow in your head. (This is why it's always good to arrive a little early for the session. If the engineer's already there, he'll play you what you will be tracking to if you ask nice. Cuts down on nasty surprises!) After a while of playing to a click, you begin to feel it, and can play behind, on, or on top of the click. Whatever the artist needs.ecktronic said:
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emergencyexit
New member
In my experience, the new Drumagog does a pretty good job at catching the dynamics of a track. With the new added free samples and the latency issues fixed, it's probably the most realistic triggering software for a pretty affordable price out there. And although the triggered sound may not be ideal with jazz, funk, or other genres that require more of a dynamic build in the percussive tracks, it fits well in the world of metal and heavier rock music because big drums being hit hard as hell consistently is what is needed in such rhythmically precise music.
I do however think the answer to your problem (especially on a demo) is to re-track and try to force your drummer to play more consistently. It may be hard, but most of the great metal drummers out there spend hours a day working on playing consistently at higher speeds.
Ben
I do however think the answer to your problem (especially on a demo) is to re-track and try to force your drummer to play more consistently. It may be hard, but most of the great metal drummers out there spend hours a day working on playing consistently at higher speeds.
Ben
Farview
Well-known member
You can set drumagog so that it doesn't track the dynamics or even so it averages the dynamic out a little.
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
emergencyexit said:
I used to beleive this theory of the harder you hit a drum the better is sounds. But now I have discovered in my latest recordings its the more sloidly hit medium stregnth hits that sound better. I am tlaking about the kick drum in this case. Hit it too hard and you dont get the same amount of resonance. The quieter you hot the kcik the more resonance (lo end) you get (to a certain degree). Most of the heavy kick hits on my new recordings sound very thin compared to the medium hits. Its like there is too much slap and no resonance.
Eck
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Cat Daddy
New member
How to have a better beater!
Learn to let the beater bounce off of the kick batter head. Burying the beater in the head kills the resonance - watch How the West Was Won and look at Bonham's foot. He's not killing that pedal and His Is the Kick Of All Time! Play country music four nights a week in a crowded bar. Best thing that ever happened to my kick and snare dynamics! Had to buy diapers and pay the rent, you know! Had no idea it would help me so much!ecktronic said: