Kick Drum Cut-though + Wall Of Guitars

A

ausgrindslaught

New member
Hey guys got a new mix for you to listen to. As always I appreciate any feedback or advice any of you can give me. In this mix I tried very hard to tackle two things:
a) a fucking BIG wall-o-guitar sound
b) kick + snare actually cutting through the mix.

The guitars went... okay. Still not really 'wide' enough for me. I've got 2 different guitar tracks (very different distortion). Then I've used those tracks to create 5 layers of guitar (G1a and G1b panned hard right, got G2a in both speakers, G2b Eq'd differently anda panned mostly left. Another G2c to fatten up the right hand speakers, again phase shifted and EQ'd).

The kick drum... its getting there. Took me ages to EQ it to actually cut through the mix (boost at 80hz, 200hz, 2.5k and 4k - cut at 250-400 and a little at 100-160). Reduced guitars in the core bottom frequencies for the kick. I didnt want to take all the bottom end of the guitars though, because chances are I'm not going to record a bass guitar - so I want fat guitars and a big kick drum in there.

I could remove some lower frequencies in the snare but I dont really want to weaken it. It hasnt been EQd at all. Snare is all in the centre channel with a *tiny* bit in the outer. Kick is 100% centre, 65% outer (i had to do it). Guitars dont come into the centre channel at all.

Anyway guys let me know what you think. Any advice on the kick drum or getting an even huger more chaotic wall o' guitars would be nice. I havent compressed anything (if you think thatll help with some guitars speak up). It sounds a bit better if I use Cool Edits shitty 'Pan/Expand' to widen up the track and then hardlimit + normalise to -1db, but I figured that wasnt going to help you give feedback on the mix.

If you want me to isolate drums or anything like that I'd be more than happy to.



Cheers and beers guys. Look forward to your advice. If you want a reference for the mix id like; www.myspace.com/splittergrind
 
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Dude that sounds like ass. You can't have fast and big. It just doesn't work that way. For something to sound big you have to hear the decay and with 16th notes there is no room for the sound to breathe.

Cut the low end out of that kick and just try to emphasize the attack. Get 2 guitar tracks sounding good then maybe add some more for texture. Don't just copy and EQ the guitars. Try to mix different types of tones. Mix a smooth warm tone with a thin fuzzy tone, etc.
 
yeah, sorry but that kick sounds like garbage. you need to cut out the lower mids around 200 and boost around 50-80 and bring out the attack in the 4-6kHz range. the guitars sound "ok" for this kind of music. it is hard to hear definition. i agree that a huge mix relies on big open chords that let the saturation of the amps shine through with a powerful in-your-chest kick.

edit

i listened again and i think the guitars need some more high end and i wouldent bother having a guitar down the middle, its just taking up room and making the mix more muddy and mono.
 
ausgrindslaught said:
Hey guys got a new mix for you to listen to. As always I appreciate any feedback or advice any of you can give me. In this mix I tried very hard to tackle two things:
a) a fucking BIG wall-o-guitar sound
b) kick + snare actually cutting through the mix.

The guitars went... okay. Still not really 'wide' enough for me. I've got 2 different guitar tracks (very different distortion). Then I've used those tracks to create 5 layers of guitar (G1a and G1b panned hard right, got G2a in both speakers, G2b Eq'd differently anda panned mostly left. Another G2c to fatten up the right hand speakers, again phase shifted and EQ'd).

The kick drum... its getting there. Took me ages to EQ it to actually cut through the mix (boost at 80hz, 200hz, 2.5k and 4k - cut at 250-400 and a little at 100-160). Reduced guitars in the core bottom frequencies for the kick. I didnt want to take all the bottom end of the guitars though, because chances are I'm not going to record a bass guitar - so I want fat guitars and a big kick drum in there.

I could remove some lower frequencies in the snare but I dont really want to weaken it. It hasnt been EQd at all. Snare is all in the centre channel with a *tiny* bit in the outer. Kick is 100% centre, 65% outer (i had to do it). Guitars dont come into the centre channel at all.

Anyway guys let me know what you think. Any advice on the kick drum or getting an even huger more chaotic wall o' guitars would be nice. I havent compressed anything (if you think thatll help with some guitars speak up). It sounds a bit better if I use Cool Edits shitty 'Pan/Expand' to widen up the track and then hardlimit + normalise to -1db, but I figured that wasnt going to help you give feedback on the mix.

If you want me to isolate drums or anything like that I'd be more than happy to.



Cheers and beers guys. Look forward to your advice. If you want a reference for the mix id like; www.myspace.com/splittergrind
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You mentioned boosting the kick at 200 Hz. Yikes. You've got way too much kick in that range, I would be cutting a SHITLOAD of that out.

Screw copying and pasting guitar tracks. You should record multiple tracks separately. Try recording 2 tracks panned hard left and right, then 2 more tracks with a different tone also panned hard left and right. All that eq'ing and shifting copied tracks just creates a bunch of crap.

I don't understand how you're thiinking about your panning. When you said the kick is 100% center and also 65% outer.....what does that mean?
If your kick is 100% center, then it's playing equally in both speakers - that's all there is to it. With your guitars, don't put a track in the center because it will just interfere with hearing the kick and snare - which should be dead center.
 
Are you trying to mix this in Surround? If so, stop it. You shouldn't have a center channel.

You are making this way harder than it needs to be. Just record the guitars with similar (or the same) guitar sound. This sound needs to have a good bit of midrange and not as much distortion as you think. Record 3 takes. Pann them left, center, right. Make the one that plays by itself the center one and a little quieter than the two that are panned. Most of the low end in a "big" guitar sound is really the bass.

With your kick, cut 400hz with a wide bandwidth and boost 3-6k (a lot) and send it into a compressor (or limiter) The snare just needs to be brightened up and sent into a compressor.
 
Wow, that's mixed even worse than my Napalm Death bootleg, which was recorded on a minidisc recorder inside a pocket....
 
Fuck ey, with all that positive feedback I might consider being a professional sound engineer. Its why I'm here though.

I just had a bit of a listen at my work computer and it seems I'm hearing things very differently on my speakers at home (3-way 25w speakers part of a sony minisystem - not a good idea?). I'm going to have to get some monitors. That kick sounds like absolute fucking shit on this computer.

I recorded 2 guitar tracks - but the 2nd guitar I recorded with 3 different mics at the same time (because I felt like it). I only used one though. So using the same guitar track EQ'd differently and with the phase inverted is largely useless? What about same track recorded through another mic?

I don't understand how you're thiinking about your panning. When you said the kick is 100% center and also 65% outer.....what does that mean?
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I might have this arse backwards, but cool edits Channel Mixer has Inner/Inner, Inner/Outer, Outer/Inner and Outer/Outer. Would that be 'attempting surround mixing'?

Most of the low end in a "big" guitar sound is really the bass.
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Yeah I know. I didnt want to put a bass in because we havent got a bassist (a la Pig Destroyer). Looks like I'll reconsider.

I'll see what I can do with the kick. Believe me it sounded decent on my speakers, I spent ages EQ'ing it. Boosting 50-80 just gave me a muddy bassed out rumble. Havent had much luck with trying to compress the kick either.

Before subjecting myself to the track on another set of speakers I could tell I needed more high end on the guitar and more high end on the snare.

You can't have fast and big. It just doesn't work that way. For something to sound big you have to hear the decay and with 16th notes there is no room for the sound to breathe.
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Really? Check out; Nasum, Rotten Sound, Gadget & Splitter on MySpace. Huge fucking sound, wall of guitars, breakneck speed.
 
ausgrindslaught said:
Really? Check out; Nasum, Rotten Sound, Gadget & Splitter on MySpace. Huge fucking sound, wall of guitars, breakneck speed.
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I checked out your reference link and there was nothing big sounding about it at all. A big drum sound is Bonham or even Phil Collins. A big guitar sound is Metallica, STP or AC/DC.

I'm not saying that because I think grindcore is a bunch of noisy bullshit but because you have to have the goal of making things cut through when you have a fast and dense mix. After mixing dozens of those shitty bands night after night I did manage to learn a trick or two to make them sound half decent.
 
TexRoadkill said:
Dude that sounds like ass. You can't have fast and big. It just doesn't work that way. For something to sound big you have to hear the decay and with 16th notes there is no room for the sound to breathe.

Cut the low end out of that kick and just try to emphasize the attack. Get 2 guitar tracks sounding good then maybe add some more for texture. Don't just copy and EQ the guitars. Try to mix different types of tones. Mix a smooth warm tone with a thin fuzzy tone, etc.
Click to expand...

Actually, that's not true. For a prime example of fast and big, check out Vital Remains' 'Dechristianize' album. A huge guitar sound, a huge drum sound, but incredibly fast. Somehow it's all really clear, though, not like most speed-death metal. No clue how they do it, though.
 
im having a similar problem .. though my Kick sounds great by itself .. its a drumagog kick .. but in the mix its not quite there .. i cut low bass and guitar freq .. panned guitars wide .. I think the prob is coming from me compressing/limiting the mix ?? maybe its smashing the kick not allowing it
to peak/decay ?? as looking at the wave file the kick peaks are at the outer most edge of the wav. and look chopped off ?? am i on the right track ?????
 
ausgrindslaught said:
I just had a bit of a listen at my work computer and it seems I'm hearing things very differently on my speakers at home (3-way 25w speakers part of a sony minisystem - not a good idea?).
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You do need to get monitors, some stereo speakers are designed to make everything sound good, regardless. You need monitors that don't lie to you.



ausgrindslaught said:
So using the same guitar track EQ'd differently and with the phase inverted is largely useless?[/qoute]Very useless.
ausgrindslaught said:
What about same track recorded through another mic?
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That still won't get you the big-ness you are looking for. That will come from the slight tuning and timing variations of different performances. If you just re-EQ a copy and pan them, you will end up with a lob-sided, very small sounding mix.



ausgrindslaught said:
I might have this arse backwards, but cool edits Channel Mixer has Inner/Inner, Inner/Outer, Outer/Inner and Outer/Outer. Would that be 'attempting surround mixing'?
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I've never seen cool edit, but that has to be the dumbest panning description I've heard of. Normally, it is a knob or fader that you slide from left to right and can choose to place the sound anywhere in the sound field.

ausgrindslaught said:
I'll see what I can do with the kick. Believe me it sounded decent on my speakers, I spent ages EQ'ing it. Boosting 50-80 just gave me a muddy bassed out rumble. Havent had much luck with trying to compress the kick either.
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You are fighting an uphill battle when you can't really hear what it sounds like. I've never had a kick that required as much EQ as you were using. It normally takes a cut somewhere between 200hz and 600hz and a boost between 3k and 6k to get you in the ballpark.
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Farview said:
That still won't get you the big-ness you are looking for. That will come from the slight tuning and timing variations of different performances. If you just re-EQ a copy and pan them, you will end up with a lob-sided, very small sounding mix.
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Listen to these guys, they're a huge help and I pretty much owe alot to them for teaching me how to do this stuff properly. I used to record a take of guitars and try to eq them different and nudge one track and all kinds of bullshit. It always sounded nasty and terrible and contantly pissed me off. I was told to do nearly exactly what Farview said here and ever since it's been a breeze to track guitars. Here's a clip of an unfinished mix, well barely started actually. It's a 5watt epiphone going thru a marshall 4x12 cabinet. There are 4 takes, two panned left, two panned right. It's not the greatest song and like I said the mix needs help but to me the guitars sound decently big, especially considering the teeny tiny amp. Anyway there is no eq on those guitars, kick drum is cut in the low mids and boosted around 2k(still not great though). If you get the guitars right at the source you'd be surprised how little work you really have to do to them. Anyway, have a listen and feel free to flame on!

 
Farview said:
I've never seen cool edit, but that has to be the dumbest panning description I've heard of. Normally, it is a knob or fader that you slide from left to right and can choose to place the sound anywhere in the sound field.
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I've used and use CEP and Audition and I have no idea what he's talking about. The channel mixer has a simple L/R Pan for each track that works just like anybody else. In this case it's a numeric field display that you can either just type in the pan value (-1 to -100 for Left pan, 1 to 100 for Right pan), or just drag it left/right with the mouse to change the pan position value the same way one would drag a pan knob or pan slider.

I have no idea what he's referring to with "Inner/Outer" and all that; there is *nothing* on the channel mixer (for from CEP 2 to Audition 1.5) labeled that and no reference to anything like that in a search of the help files.

G.
 
jonnyc said:
.....Here's a clip of an unfinished mix, well barely started actually. It's a 5watt epiphone going thru a marshall 4x12 cabinet. There are 4 takes, two panned left, two panned right. It's not the greatest song and like I said the mix needs help but to me the guitars sound decently big, especially considering the teeny tiny amp. Anyway there is no eq on those guitars, kick drum is cut in the low mids and boosted around 2k(still not great though)......

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Nice! ;)
 
jonnyc said:
Listen to these guys, they're a huge help and I pretty much owe alot to them for teaching me how to do this stuff properly. I used to record a take of guitars and try to eq them different and nudge one track and all kinds of bullshit. It always sounded nasty and terrible and contantly pissed me off. I was told to do nearly exactly what Farview said here and ever since it's been a breeze to track guitars. Here's a clip of an unfinished mix, well barely started actually. It's a 5watt epiphone going thru a marshall 4x12 cabinet. There are 4 takes, two panned left, two panned right. It's not the greatest song and like I said the mix needs help but to me the guitars sound decently big, especially considering the teeny tiny amp. Anyway there is no eq on those guitars, kick drum is cut in the low mids and boosted around 2k(still not great though). If you get the guitars right at the source you'd be surprised how little work you really have to do to them. Anyway, have a listen and feel free to flame on!

Click to expand...

This the VJ?
 
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