keeping sound out

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dobro

dobro

Well-known member
My studio's a room in a Singapore apartment. The windows aren't glass, they're shutters. When I record or mix, I fit sheets of 5/8" plywood into the shutter frame/over the shutter to block the sound. The plywood's got felt around the edges to block more sound. However, my question's about the carpet tiles which I've attached to the outer surface of the plywood - does this do anything to block incoming noise do you think? It makes the plywood baffles significantly heavier, and my thinking has been that soft, dense mass (the carpet tiles) will help cut noise. But the tiles are just nailed to the plywood with no air space in between, so I'm wondering how effective it is.

Feel free to say 'I don't know either' LOL.
 
Hey dobro !
I would think that the carpet would cut down vibration - in effect, you would think that would cut down noise. Too much trouble to take them off as an experiment ?

Just a quick thought.

cheers,
Mike (on vacation in Brisbane, and really shouldn't be online ... getting dirty looks from family ...):D :D
 
does this do anything to block incoming noise do you think
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Hello dobro. Very little. It will absorb some high frequency, but still very little. Considering you are in an apartment, do you still hear noise after installing these. The best answer is what your ears are telling you. If you hear noise, then it isn't working is it? By the way, are you referring to traffic noise? In reality, traffic noise is very difficult to eliminate, because of low frequency rumble amongst other things. But you are the only one who can tell how loud, and how much noise you will tolerate on your recordings. Your correct in one sense though. The more mass, the better sound attenuation. However, even with plywood in the windows, it will do little to stop ALL noise. Your apartment structure will still transmit sound into your room. I don't really see any way around that, considering your apartment doesn't even have glass. That tells me the structure is not designed with weather in mind, let alone sound. But like I said, only you can determine how loud it is, and if you can deal with it.

A better way would be to build a frame, with ply on both faces, with some kind of available insulation in the void. Make it very tight fitting, with some kind of gasketing. Remember, sound can enter a very very small hole. And you have the shutters in the way to deal with. Even then, I would almost guarantee you STILL will hear noise by way of structural transmission and flimsy construction materials. Adding mass to your walls is another thing you could do, but you live in an apartment, so I would probably be spitting in the wind to advise any more techniques. If you are interested in soundproofing, there are tons of threads here describing various techniques for improving sound attenuation. But living in an apartment does not usually lend itself very well to modification on a scale required to deal with traffic noise. Thats the best I can offer. Good luck with the carpet though. If anything, I would point the carpet towards the interior. Might help a LITTLE with reflections in the room IF you needed it. But without knowing many other things, there is very little we could help you with
in regards to soundproofing. Needless to say, it is one of those things that require adding substantial mass, and decoupling techniques to effectively deal with it. Both of which are almost impossible in an apartment situation. Not to mention mucho bucks. Isn't reality a bitch. Thats the trouble with soundproofing though. There are no shortcuts. Well, thats my .02

fitZ:rolleyes:
 
Hey dobro...recording in a Singapore apartment, that's awesome. I would imagine the outside noise is loud, any rickshaws around there? I'm just kidding, all I have is a TV mentality when it comes to visualizing the place. Fitz is the pro at acoustical solutions no doubt. He did mention mass tho, and there is a site that sells a roll out material that weighs in at 1lb per square foot, its suppose to be put into the walls when drywalling, but they also sell it with o'ring hangers built into it, so it can be wall hung. Just thought you might want to check it out at www.acousticalsolutions.com good luck and have a great New Year! Ralph
 
Hey dobro...recording in a Singapore apartment, that's awesome. I would imagine the outside noise is loud, any rickshaws around there? I'm just kidding, all I have is a TV mentality when it comes to visualizing the place. Fitz is the pro at acoustical solutions no doubt. He did mention mass tho, and there is a site that sells a roll out material that weighs in at 1lb per square foot, its suppose to be put into the walls when drywalling, but they also sell it with o'ring hangers built into it, so it can be wall hung. Just thought you might want to check it out at www.acousticalsolutions.com good luck and have a great New Year! Ralph
 
What about the rest fo the walls? Are they brick, gypsum, straw?? You could be hearing a lot from them as well.
RF
 
Well, I was considering just the transmission through the windows/shutters, but you're right - the whole room transmits sound, and THERE AIN'T NUTHIN' I CAN DO ABOUT IT. The walls are brick covered with plaster, the floors are concrete covered with lino, and the ceiling's...uh...dunno - it's ceiling tiles with a big empty attic above it. Traffic noise ain't much of an issue where I am, but there's rumble, yeah.

But as for the mids and highs - what do you think one layer of carpet tile will do for one piece of 5/8" plywood?
 
Fitz is the pro at acoustical solutions no doubt.
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Hello guys. Let me CLARIFY some things here. Ralph, your statement, although appreciated mucho, is way too generous, unless, given as sarcassim. Here is my disclaimer. I'm in no way an expert at anything except pissing people off:D I even hate to sound like one. But this is a forum for home recording enthusiasts, of which I am one also. I have gained an insight into many things here, thanks to other members who have shared their knowledge and time with us. I just try and pass on what I have learned. It by no means gives me credentials as an expert. I also know from past experience, soundproofing is a difficult at best, impossible under certain circumstances and can waste a lot of hard earned money and time. The best advice I can ever offer here, is truth, at least as I know it. When I am wrong, I know I'll hear about it immedietly. Also, understanding the nature of sound transmission is not something that comes from intuition, instinct, nor second guessing. On the contrary, ST, if anything, defies common sense sometimes. :eek:
Sooooo...let me put it this way. The BEST advice I can offer a person is only as good as the information they supply here in regards to what they are really trying to accomplish.
In dobro's case, he was ONLY asking if the carpet tile he applied to a plywood panel inserted into a window opening, would improve the panels ability to impede sound. My answer is not really. It will help dampen vibration in the panel, and absorb certain frequencys ON THE OUTSIDE, not the inside. The panel, when excited by frequencies relative to its size, transfers by way of vibration, the same wavelengths that exite it, to the INSIDE. Make sense? That it has very little mass is the reason. Even 2 layers of sheetrock would perform better.
Also, BECAUSE the panel is only one leaf, it really does little. Even a hollow core door is a two leaf system in a sense. That is why I suggested a frame, with panels on each face and insulation in the void. Even standard wall construction is a two leaf system. However, ANY portion of a room enclosures ability to attenuate sound is only as good as its WEAKEST LINK. You could put a completely sealed slab of concrete in the window. But if the rest of the structural framing, walls, doors, ceiling, floors, HVAC ducting allow transmission to occur at ANY level lower than the concrete, it does NO GOOD!! You still have some leakage into the room via these other paths. Soooo, what do you do? Yea, putting anything in the opening helps to some degree. But SOUNDPROOF it does not. Get my drift? Soundproofing is a misnomer. Total soundproofing is something you have to plan from the ground up. AND it is only as good as the technique detail, materials and distance from sound generation objects.
Even airports, which use some of the best Sound Transmission Class construction and materials, fail to some degree, as aircraft approach the boarding terminals. Well, I hope that gives you a little insight into MY intent here. We all face the same delimas, some more so than others.
I am just trying to clarify the nature of sound transmission. Thats all. Solutions are only as good as the weakest link. Therefore, to soundproof an apartment in Singapore, the best suggestion I could possibly give, is MOVE, as all other attempts are likely to fail given the nature of the apartment as described.:D The alternative is LIVE with it. But that brings up another point. How LOUD is the noise? Thats is what were really dealing with here. If you are only trying to impede noise that is 45 db, why build solutions that succeed at 65 db. For EVERY db of increase in noise, it takes TEN TIMES the ability to attenuate it. That is fact, as each increase of db is ten times the previous. So, there you have it. Hope this helps.

fitZ:)

ps. Ralph, I've already apologized for my disrespect on your thread regarding vocal booths. I am trying to make up for it by keeping to the point here.
 
"You could put a completely sealed slab of concrete in the window"

ROFLMAO - I liked the image of me doing that, really pissed off, and determined to keep noise out LOL.

"Therefore, to soundproof an apartment in Singapore, the best suggestion I could possibly give, is MOVE, as all other attempts are likely to fail given the nature of the apartment as described."

Yeah, I take your point. I'm making plans as we speak.

"The alternative is LIVE with it."

Well, I can't do that either. These shutters are louvred to allow air to flow freely through - that's a really noisy situation. I'm not interested in keeping all the noise out. I'm interested in keeping most of the noise out, especially the mids and highs. As for the lows, I dump at lot of those in the mix with a high pass filter on most tracks.

"But that brings up another point. How LOUD is the noise?"

Not that loud, but loud enough to be heard on recorded tracks that don't have the windows stuffed with something to keep the noise out. I did a whole album a few years ago with nothing in the windows, and the night noise (crickets and insects mostly) was fierce enough to sound like a blanket of white noise on the tracks.

So, I'm not looking for perfect solutions; I'm looking for an improved recording environment. I'm not hoping to keep 100% of the noise out; I'm hoping to keep 90-95% of the noise out.
 
Hello dobro, I take it you are no newbie when it comes to recording. You already know enough about it to understand the principals. I'm no expert on the "isolation" issues, let alone the acoustical side of things. Hope I didn't scare ya out of your apartment! Ha! But if your that involved with recording, then you KNOW what you have to do to make it better. I was just trying to help. Well good luck with your "intended" move and your recording.
Cheers

fitZ:)
 
Dobro,

I am absolutely not an expert in acoustics but, I do have a thought or two about what you are trying to achieve with the carpet on the plywood routine.

Perhaps as an alternative to carpet you could use an alternative covering or coating on the plywood like the stuff that the car stereo freaks, I mean enthusiasts:), use to insulate their cars with to tighten up their bass resonances which has a sticky tar or heavy rubber feel to the stuff and is sometimes covered in a mineral wool type material. I don't know the brand name of this stuff but, perhaps someone here knows what I am talking about?

BTW, from what I have heard of your music in the clinic, I don't recall hearing too much in the way of abnormal noises in your recordings so, perhaps your current methods are more successful then you think?

Cheers! :)
 
No sarcasm intended, if I came off that way I apologize. I'm just learning much needed new stuff here, maybe I throw my 2 cents in where it's not needed. In the future I'll keep my posts on the subject matter and quit butting in where I'm not needed. I'm just a newbie trying to build my first HS. Thanks for all the advice.- Ralph
 
Hello Ralph, glad to see you. Hey, anyone can throw their ,02 in here. I butt in all the time.:D And when I'm wrong, I hear about it from the pros immedietly. So don't let my previous encounter make you hesitate. I'm no expert in this stuff. Actually, to reply even when wrong helps bring out accurate info from people who do know.


fitZ:)
 
Thanks G of FM: well, up until now, I've been using that carpet on the plywood thing, so maybe that's one reason my mixes haven't had too much extraneous noise on them LOL.

But I'd like to take the stuff off, cuz it makes the panels heavy and more difficult to put into place. I have to take them down when I'm finished with tracking or mixing, cuz the room needs to breathe - we're in the tropics - and then they need to go back up the next time. Not only that, but I have to store as much of my gear as possible (mics, monitors etc) in dry boxes to protect them from the humidity. So every time I use the studio, I have to set stuff up. I'd *love* to have a room that didn't require assembling every time I used it. I *dream* of walking into a room with all the gear set up ready to roll. Just turn on the power and it's show time! Sigh... :D
 
The best compromise would be to cut the carpet into strips and staple them to the edges. That way you have them as gaskets to get a better seal over the window but you don't have all the weight.
 
Yeah, well, I use felt for the edges for that 'gasket' seal thing you mentioned - it's a snug enough fit, and I can add extra felt where and when needed.

But I really don't understand sound as well as I need to - I thought that adding a layer of carpet to the plywood would add to its sound-blocking capacity.
 
Hey dobro.....hmmmm, I love dobro's:D hey, don't get any funny ideas...ha! anyway, soundproofing and acoustics are two different things. They are related in studios. If you want to start learning soundproofing, keep an eye on every thread that KNIGHTFLY(Steve) is responding to.
HE is the expert. And I truly mean that. He is the studio construction moderator at John Sayers recording studio design forum. It is currently offline because of server failure. But Steve knows his shit. He has some "sticky" threads with links and pics of the ways to build studio and control rooms. Here is the link, but it won't come back online until January. Now, John and Steve do and ARE responding here as well. Take a look at the thread called "guitar amp room" or Pole barn studio. Or do a search here. If you want to understand the principles keep an eye on Steves info. The key to soundproofing is "isolation" of an inner shell, from an exterior shell. Which means a "room within a room". Which means NOTHING touches between the two shells. The whole interior shell "floats" on resiliant neoprene pads. That is the only place it actually touches. But the methodology of building must maintain certain "leaf" principles. I won't go into it cause Steve has ALREADY done it at least 10 times here. Just search here. I have a bunch of links also but no time right now to post them. Time for work. Argggggrrrrrrrrr!!:mad: :p BAHHUMBUG..........later
Oh, I was going to give a link but it don't work right now. Sorry.
fitZ:D
 
More mass will usually give you better sound rejection but you only need mass for low frequencies. You can stop highs with plastic sheeting. Since you probably have other sound leaks in the room I would doubt the carpet is giving you that much more benefit but you never know until you try it without.
 
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