Just got my NT5s....

[jake-owa]

They just came today. These are my first SD condensors but I think they sound pretty nice. I built a stereo stand and I'm using them now to mic my cymbals. The sound is wide and beautifully buttery to my ears. They seem to sound best pointed at the top of the cymbals about a foot and a half away from the edge.
The windscreen is a must for using these on vocals as they get very plosive in close proximity.

I'm stoked!

 

[ds21]

I got mine a couple months ago and they sound good, but one has something wrong with it, it has a zipper type of sound... loud when first pluged in then gets fainter but is always there, will be sending them back for repair/replacement this week.

 

[Armistice]

I've made this comment elsewhere, but I find both the NT5s and the MXL603s to be good mics for the price, but not all that great outright really.

I'll temper that by saying that my only use for them is recording fingerstyle acoustic guitar in solo mode - I don't think either is up to it and will most likely end up selling both pairs and going up a level or two, as soon as I figure out what that means.

I find they both have an underlying cold / metallic / middy tone that is just not there on the instrument itself, although I'll keep dicking around with placement for a while in case it's just me.

Quite disappointed, really, they just don't work for me, but, as I said, I'm only using them on acoustic steel string.

Any Australians interested in taking them off my hands, let me know.

Cheers

 

[jake-owa]

I really only bought them for a stereo cymbal pair and they work nicely for that. I will try them on my nylon string sometime but I bet I will like the 421 better there for it's woody, natural sound.

I know they're not km84s but since I've never used those I can say they sound even better...*snicker*.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I really only bought them for a stereo cymbal pair and they work nicely for that. I will try them on my nylon string sometime but I bet I will like the 421 better there for it's woody, natural sound.

I know they're not km84s but since I've never used those I can say they sound even better...*snicker*.

I'd be curious on how they work for you with the nylon string. Since I'm thinking of getting a pair for recording my nylon string. And since I've seen others mention they're a tad dark sounding, and my nylon string guitar has a darker woodish tone (no finish on the wood top).
But they're tempting for a matched pair at that price.

 

[Flatpicker]

I find they both have an underlying cold / metallic / middy tone that is just not there on the instrument itself, although I'll keep dicking around with placement for a while in case it's just me...

As far as the 603s go, let me be the first to put that thought to rest...it's NOT just you... They sound exactly the same way on MY steel string.

 

[John Mayes]

I have a pair of KM-184's and they compare nicely. Not as open o the top end and slightly less detailed, but then again 1/4th the price....

 

[tdukex]

I've made this comment elsewhere, but I find both the NT5s and the MXL603s to be good mics for the price, but not all that great outright really.

I'll temper that by saying that my only use for them is recording fingerstyle acoustic guitar in solo mode - I don't think either is up to it and will most likely end up selling both pairs and going up a level or two, as soon as I figure out what that means.

I find they both have an underlying cold / metallic / middy tone that is just not there on the instrument itself, although I'll keep dicking around with placement for a while in case it's just me.

Quite disappointed, really, they just don't work for me, but, as I said, I'm only using them on acoustic steel string.

Any Australians interested in taking them off my hands, let me know.

Cheers

Well...with respect...your implication is that they are actually not very good mics. And I disagree--at least about the 603s. I haven't heard the NT5.

Different players, different guitars, different strings, different rooms, different mics, different mic techniques, different preamps, different converters, different ears...all these things effect a recording. I've actually heard complaints (too brite, tinny, harsh etc.) about the Neuman KM184, a mic that cost ten-times as much as the 603s.

And I've had excellent results (to my ears) with the 603s. For the price, I think they're fabulous. Granted, I don't have an Avalon and a KM184 to compare to, but I feel it is possible to get a very nice acoustic guitar sound out of these mics, and I'm using a lowly DMP3 preamp. I will say my guitar is a Webber OM and can sound a little brite if not miced correctly--especially when I was using Behringer pres.

I remember 2-3 years ago EM Mag had this extensive SD mic shootout where half a dozen or so big name SDs were faced off. An Oktava MC012 (from the soundroom) was also thrown into the battle. The double blind listening test had a very impressive group of engineers, producers, and artists whos ears should be regarded as at least good or better. Surprisingly, the MC012 fared quite well in the various tests, including acoustic guitar. In fact, on some sources, and I think acoustic guitar was one, many of the judges favored it over most of the much more expensive mics.

Fast forward a couple of years and Harvey Gerst reviews the MXL603s, likes it a lot, and calls it a "winner." He further says it "sounds almost identical to a MC012." I have both of these mics and would have a hard time picking one from the other in a blind listening test on acoustic guitar. Maybe as I gain experience I'll notice a bigger diffference.

Regarding the NT5, Luthier John Mayes owns both the NT5 and the KM184, and likes both, saying the NT5 is darker and needs to be out farther from the guitar. He really likes both a lot, though.

So, while I understand that neither NT5 nor the 603s are working for you, I also understand there are many variables (especially the instrument) that go into a good recording, and I don't agree with the assertion that these are "good mics for the price, but not all that great outright really," because I've heard similar statements about the KM184, the SM81, and other highly regarded mics.

 

[Armistice]

I live in hope tk - the reason I bought both is because of the raves the 603s were getting here - I already had the NT5s. As I said, I'll keep playing round with positioning, having now run the gamut of guitars (I'm currently using a very nice sounding Maton Messiah, which is a world class guitar in anyone's language), but there's this basic tone that I'm hearing that I don't like, no matter where I've positioned to date - it seems Flatpicker also hears it.

Not sure what else to try with them, though - open for suggestions - the room's very average, though.

My first assumption in things like this is always that I'm the problem, rather than the recording equipment, but I've been playing around with these things for a while (MXLs & NT5s) and am still yet to get a sound I'm really happy with - and I did say "I find" in front of my assertion - I've tried to be clear that this is only in my (limited) experience.

I'll keep trying - trust me, I really want these babies to work! Thanks for your info.

Cheers

 

[jake-owa]

Maybe a SD condensor is just not the sound you're looking for?

 

[tdukex]

Armistice, what preamp are you using? What strings? Are they new? Pospher Bronze are brighter than Elixer Nanowebs, e.g. Maybe you could go down to the local music shop, if one is close, and try out several other SDs. Maybe, God forbid, you might even like the ultra bright AKC C1000 on acoustic guit. Are you recording on a thick carpeted floor? This can sometimes suck the life out of an acoustic recording.

Of course, it's ok if you just don't like either of these mics, period. You'll eventually find the combo you like.

 

[Armistice]

Indeed, maybe an SD is not the sound I'm looking for - what I'm looking for is the sound that my guitar makes - I'm led to believe from various bits of research, that SDs are best for acoustic - I've also tried (but not too hard) an LD - Rode NT2 in this case, which is all I have! Open for any other suggestions though!

TK - using a Presonus MP20 - which is generally regarded as pretty clean - over here in Australia, local music stores don't actually stock much in the way of mics or much in the way or auditioning facilities, unfortunately - and I live in Sydney, the biggest city!

I'm guilty of the carpet thing though - I may move into the kitchen, which has a tiled floor and see what happens there - if the tone improves then my master plan to eventually put wooden flooring down may be accelarated somewhat.

So many people have written in here about getting good results with MXL603s that I'm going to keep trying various possibilities if anyone can suggest them - I just know that, whenever I hear a recorded fingerstyle steel string acoustic, I'm miles away from that clarity and purity of tone - and it ain't the guitar, which is a beautiful instrument.

Sigh... back to the drawing board, I guess.

I've actually gone off Elixirs - tried the nanos and polys - liked the lack of squeek the polys gave but they sound dead, and just don't like the sound of the nanos much, all though they do last forever.

Thanks for the advice, and please keep it coming!

Cheers

 

[Phyl]

I'm guilty of the carpet thing though - I may move into the kitchen, which has a tiled floor and see what happens there - if the tone improves then my master plan to eventually put wooden flooring down may be accelarated somewhat.

I've actually gone off Elixirs - tried the nanos and polys - liked the lack of squeek the polys gave but they sound dead, and just don't like the sound of the nanos much, all though they do last forever.

Cheers

Great thread - I've learned a lot.

I bought a pair of MC012s and until recently wasn't very impressed when trying to record finger picked acoustic guitar. I finally got a good sound using a single mike about 4 inches from the 12th fret. Any further back and the nice woody tone and jangly sound completely disappear. I suspect carpeting is part of my problem too. I always record with new strings.

I too found the Elixer strings to be lacking when it comes to tone, they make my Taylor sound like a cheap guitar.

 

[Flatpicker]

Armistice-
Your thoughts on the 603s sound just like mine. Using them in the kitchen, bathroom or any other “hard sounding” room will probably just cause more echo and further blur the sound.

FWIW, I ended up with a Studio Projects B3 which worked better for me than any of the small diaphragm condensers I tried. That’s probably due in part to it’s 3-micron capsule which, I’m guessing gives it a faster response to transients. It’s still not the “holy grail”, but it’ll do just fine until my budget allows for something better. A less expensive route would be to go with the SP B1 which can be had for about the same price as the 603s.

I tried a C1000, and like the 603s, found it to be different from what I had read – several said it had a bright and harsh, high end, but in my room with my rig, it sounded fine – high end and all (not great, just fine). I ended up picking the B3 over the C1000, though. It just had more of the sound I was looking for, and was more versatile to boot.. I would have hung on to the C1000 if it wasn’t so darned expensive, but the expense just didn’t justify the need.

One more thing: “The Listening Sessions” is releasing a CD this month comparing horde’s of small diaphragm condenser pairs which I suspect will be helpful. You can read about it here: http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm

BTW, weeks or months from now, when you find what you like, come back, revive the thread, and tell us about it. Good luck with your search.

 

[Armistice]

Thanks Flatpicker - indeed the kitchen didn't work - it just yielded a different variant of the same sound, with a bit more echo, though not much (it's a small kitchen!) - I'll do some final testing on the weekend and try both NT5s & 603s with a variety of guitars to see if I can get the sound I'm looking for, including a nylon string - I'm happy to hang onto things that I have a use for, but there's just this fundamental sound coming from both that I don't like. It's not the guitar - it SHOULDN'T be the pre, but I have others I can try - the cheapest element in the signal chain are the mics - my logical brain tells me that I'm getting what I paid for here, and that although there are people, whose opinion I respect, on this board who are getting the sound they're looking for from these mics, that sound is different from what I'm looking for.

That's one of the issues in talking about sound I guess.

My next step may be to book 4 hours at a "real" studio and see if they can get good results, and if they can, find out what it was they used, mic-wise, and go from there.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Cheers

And, anyone else who's reading this thread, these are just my experiences, in my house with my guitar and my equipment - not meaning to diss the mics generally, they're just not giving me what I want - doesn't mean they won't for you!

 

[tdukex]

Yeah, the MP20 should give good results.

If you haven't already, try XY config about six inches out from the neck joint. But instead of the normal 90 degree angle, go for 110 degrees. Nice wide stereo spread, and it'll pick up more room, more air.

Or, try recording with the mics out about two or three feet--or even four. Some guitars sound better miced at a distance as it allows the guitar's sound to develop and mature--or so the story goes. My LD tube mic sound best at about 18-24 inches. Any closer and it starts getting boomy.

Have someone else play while you listen with one ear, moving back and forth, in and out of the nearfield. Find any sweet spots? Put a mic there, any mic.

Good luck.

 

[Flatpicker]

Ok, guys. When I’m wrong, I’m wrong, and I don’t mind saying so. Apparently some of you knew that already.

After stating my distaste for the 603s all over this thread, I again, put one of them up and started experimenting with placement around my mahogany acoustic. I ended up putting it out about 12” straight out from the 12th fret (such an easy formula to remember and I know I’ve tried that position several times before). Here the 603s very accurately captured the guitar’s sonic image as I’ve never heard it before. I tried to duplicate this with the B3 and couldn’t quite get there. The B3 sounded most like the 603s when it was closer to the sound hole around the 17th fret. But even here, the B3’s high-end was exaggerated a little, whereas the 603s was more accurate. Of course it ain’t no Schoeps, but this last try produced very useable results.

I’ve spent loads of time messing with this mic and have tracks from past experiments that don’t sound nearly this good. Why it suddenly started “working”, I don’t know. Maybe it knew I was bad-mouthing it.

 

[tdukex]

Flatpicker, you have proven once again what Harvey and others have asserted many times: mic technique is so very important to any recording. I have made so many ass-sounding recordings of acoustic guitar--lethal combination of poor playing and mic technique--it's embarrasing. But with persistance and practice, I have improved considerabley. It's good to see someone of your ability is still learning, too.

 

[Flatpicker]

...It's good to see someone of your ability...

Thanks for the complement, but if you think that, then I’m probably coming across a little over rated, to say the least. Although I’m beginning to understand the technical aspect of this stuff, I’m not getting to spend nearly enough time using it. It’s tough when you have to be the technician, engineer, producer, AND muscian!

 

[jnorman]

it sounds to me like you guys are fighting probably the most common problem with mics today - all the new crop of imported mics are hyped inthe top end to fool the user into thinking it is "clean" or "detailed". even the well-liked neumann km184 suffers from this ailment much to the detriment of any engineer trying to actually capture a faithful rendition of an acoustic instrument. this problem is not as immediately noticeable to those of you doing very busy rock/pop material, but believe me, mics like the octava, marshalls, rode nt5s, and similar are simply not useable for the classical material i do. when you have a professional player with a $25,000 violin, or a $50K piano, you just cant get away with ANY cheap gear inthe signal chain. after a few years of using km184s, gefell M300s, and similar medium priced SD condensers, i finally had to break down and buy a pair of schoeps cmc64s to get true results i was after. the real key to accurate recordings is a flat freq response curve - take a look at the curve for the schoeps mentioned vs the curve for nt5s, or 603s, or virtually any sub-$1000 microphone. it is no coincidence that the engineers who specialize in real acoustic instrument recordings use schoeps, DPA, sennheiser mkh series, and josephson series 6 mics - look at their curves - it can be quite edifying...