Just acquired a Tascam MS16 and MSR16.....Woohoo!

Well I can't find any tech info on that device but based on what I'm seeing in the YouTube clip, I wouldn't use that meter to measure audio at any frequency. It's just fine for "general purpose" work, in fact I have one similar to that out in shop for work on the tractor or other vehicle and it always goes in the toolkit on trips. The fluke lives in the studio and I use it for all audio applications as well as any household electrical work just because of its fault protection features and wide range.
 
Yeah, generic digital multimeters like that are often only accurate to about 400Hz, unfortunately. I wouldn't trust it with a 1KHz signal.
 
Ok, I'll look for something better than the Smart multimeter....any reccomendations (I'm in the UK).
Any suggestions how I can narrow down which component might be giving problems in the previous clip when I applied a hairdryer to the board? I've removed the board and tested, well used my limited knowledge the group of 4 capacitors listed as no. 4 in this pic:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33383402@N06/10324918154/in/set-72157636646762475

Using my flakey meter set to 20Kohm, they registered 2.22.They are 47uF capacitors. The ones numbered 1 in the pic are 4.7uF (35V) and using the same setting I couldn't get them (there's one either side of the multiconnector strip) to register anything, neither on a lower setting of 2K or 200ohm. I don't know if this means anything other than I don't know how to test things! The other things in this pic no.3 look like they had a diode sign on them but I could be wrong.....no. 4 looks like another capacitor but no markings that I could see, and no. 5 looks like a transistor and did meter certain continuity.

I'm going to contact Tascam in the UK and see if they have any documentation on these units and the MS16 in general.

Meanwhile the replacement capstan roller and tach roller rubber for the MSR16 came today from Germany so I'm going to have a play with that and see what needs fixing on that.

'Til later,

Al
 
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Measuring electronic components in place with a multi-meter is a study in futility.

Get the documentation. Get a book on basic electronics, then start doodling around in there.
 
mdainsd said:
Get the documentation. Get a book on basic electronics, then start doodling around in there.
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It appears I have all the documentation, according to Jo at Tascam UK. There is no other documentation other than the 'Operation /Maintenance' manual, of which I have a PDF. There doesn't seem to be anything in it though that documents the wiring from the audio box to the DBX units......this would mean trying to build a 'bridging connector' (jumper sockets) would require reverse engineering the socket from the backplate (if like others one wanted to run the MS16 without the DBX units).

mdainsd said:
Measuring electronic components in place with a multi-meter is a study in futility.
Click to expand...

Do you mean I should remove suspected components and try measure them out of the board?
 
So I spent a few hours this afternoon removing about 6 or 7 capacitors from the DBX board and checking their specs. All the ones I removed metered to spec (within tolerance) so I returned them, apart from two which I swopped with channel 7's decode section. When I put it back together I encountered this:

Tascam MS16......DBX problem Part 2 - YouTube

Al
 
Yeh, dry joint......but which one? Looks like I might be re-soldering all that section of the board to try to find out.

I haven't decided if I am going to use the DBX on the MS16 yet....but it would be nice to have it all working on every track if I wanted. I've just balanced the inputs and meters (took them back to zero, rather than the +3 they were at) and recorded some music tracks in stereo pairs to compare the differences between tracks. Sting - 'All this time', Daniel Lanois - 'Jolie Louise' , Paul Weller - 'Out of the sinking', Ron Sexsmith - 'Lebanon Tennessee'.....it all sounds wonderful.......punchy, yet full of dynamics.....why do my Mackie SDR24 and Fostex D2424LV never sound like this? I must be in the analogue honeymoon period......Just got to stump up $388 for two MRL tapes.

YIKES!

Al
 
I have read through the first page of this stuff and just would like to state that the MSR16 is a 1 V or 0 Vu is 0 dBV and that I am sure the service manual tells you which tape to use of what flux density to get. I think of the ones I adjusted it was a 250 nWb/M tape for the 85-16 and MS16.
The MS16 is a much better machine than the MSR16 which uses half the tape. I have worked on decks for over 40 years and the two head multitrack units are very much more time consuming and to be avoided I would say. I can calibrate a Tascam 38 in half the time it takes for a TSR8. Oh the Fostex B16 is no picnic either. The use of tape like 406 is dated and new fresh tape has been available for a long time now through Full Compass Systems in Madison Wisconsin or if you want ATR that can be ordered directly. Personally I would set the unit up to SM911 or SM900 if not the ATR. I have talked to Mike Spitz at ATR and the tape is the best there is. Realize however that Mike passed away just this last week from Cancer at 59. Hopefully the ATR company will go on as usual.
The dBx cards can be worked on and made to work and the one on the last track should be moved to the center tracks to make sure you are just not dealing with tape edge damage or effect. There are two of us Teac people still working on equipment such as Russ in New Jersey and myself (Sam Palermo) in the Chicago area. Contact me if you need actual address information. I also answer questions by E mail and on forums.
I operate Skywave Tape Deck Repair.
 
altruistica said:
I'm just watching a few Fluke 114 meters....they're listed as True RMS.....will they be ok?

The leads from the DBX units only have multipins on one end....the other end is moulded into the units themselves. Because I don't know what happens at the audio interface multipin it's difficult to know where the signal is dying. The signal 'dies' when DBX is engaged on Channel 8....does that mean the switch or switching circuitry is to blame? Actually it can't be, because when the DBX multipin leads are switched, the problem jumps to channel16 and the DBX unit now receiving audio from track 16 is fine....so it must be somewhere in the audio units circuitry or the multipin backplate (I think?????).

Al
Click to expand...

There have been some history of back plane solder joints that I found on some of the high end stuff and also you never know who was in the unit to see if they pinched wires or are causing them to short out- I had a ATR60-2HS that was like that. The meter you should be going after is the Leader LMV181A or a like type meter. I always select this meter above other as the scale is easy to read and you can look at it 12 hours day as my work is. But for most recording work I use my Audio Precision One Plus and it contains all the test equipment that is needed in one box. They are not made anymore and a used ones went for $3800.
As for track switching, most technical shops make their own switch boxes. Attention to detail is needed here to not add a lot of error.
 
altruistica said:
It appears I have all the documentation, according to Jo at Tascam UK. There is no other documentation other than the 'Operation /Maintenance' manual, of which I have a PDF. There doesn't seem to be anything in it though that documents the wiring from the audio box to the DBX units......this would mean trying to build a 'bridging connector' (jumper sockets) would require reverse engineering the socket from the backplate (if like others one wanted to run the MS16 without the DBX units).



Do you mean I should remove suspected components and try measure them out of the board?
Click to expand...

The real paper manual should have a wiring diagram which would indicate where the wires go at least for the first channel and all the rest are the same just duplicated per channel. If you are in the UK and around London, Alex Nikitin is certainly a person you should connect with as he is a tape deck designer and can in your location give you insight of the highest degree. He can be contacted as ANT on tapeheads.net forum. I am there too. You will find that if you get a real AC millivolt meter like the Leader that things will be all the more easier than using a DVM. I will NOT approach a MS16 with a DVM for audio at all.
 
I am not sure what a dry joint is but that version of machine if it uses relays- it could be relay contacts which was always the issue in previous decks. Components will do heat related things. You need to put a 1KHz signal in and have a meter bridge to see what is going on. A mixer with no meters is working in the dark. I have always had meter bridges with my Tascam mixers. 1KHz at 0 Vu is wha you need and 1 KHz is he normalized frequency for the dBx.
 
The MSR-16 is not worse than the MS16, but simply different. In fact some of its differences are better. Machines like the Tascam MSR-16, TSR-8 and Fostex G-16 were the last generation multitracks and benefited from years of R&D leading to advancements in tape head design and transport stability. 3-head vs 2-head is not such a big deal in practice. If you look at it from a service tech perspective then yes it might seem like a big deal, but for the average user of 2-head machines, once you do a complete calibration it will stay that way for months, even years.

And in the case of many Tascam 3-head machines the repro head is the same part number as the sync head, so you don’t get inferior performance from the sync head like you would with much older machines.

Quantegy 406 was and still is a modern tape and excellent performer, very popular for half-track mixes and was still made and flying off the shelves right along with 456 and GP9 until the day Quantegy shutdown. They kept making it because there was a high demand for it.
 
skywaveTDR said:
The dBx cards can be worked on and made to work and the one on the last track should be moved to the center tracks to make sure you are just not dealing with tape edge damage or effect. There are two of us Teac people still working on equipment such as Russ in New Jersey and myself (Sam Palermo) in the Chicago area. Contact me if you need actual address information. I also answer questions by E mail and on forums.
I operate Skywave Tape Deck Repair.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that but I'm in the UK.
The MS16 DBX units don't have cards as such. They are 8 channel units that have two boards, each with 4 channels of encode / decode on them. You can't switch positions...(well you might be able to switch multipin connectors on the board...but that would probably just tell me what I know....that there's a cold solder joint or imminent component failure on channel 8).
I had the machine on for a few hours yesterday and the channel started working, so heat definitely affects the outcome. I'm going to remove the board and resolder all the joints in that vicinity and see what happens.

If anyone has an MS16 with the original documentation could you check whether there is any mention of the DBX circuits as I don't think there is.

Cheers
Al
 
So after about the fifth time of trying, I think I might have sorted the DBX problem.

In the end, I went over every joint on the board that housed channel 8 decode section, and when I put it back together it worked! I'll remember that if the problem is intermittent and solved by heat, the first thing to do is to run over the joints with some solder.
 
When I first bought my MSR-16 (20 yrs ago) I was using a Tascam board & the recordings were noisy , lots a hiss. I upgraded the board to a Toft ATB 16 and played the same tape thru the new board & could not believe how great it sounded.. no hiss at all.... same tape. Point being the combination of tape machine with right board makes all the difference. I had my MSR-16 serviced about 12 yrs ago at a place in New Jersey ... they did a great job , needed new roller & overhaul. For my home studio this works for me & the 1/2" tape (used to cost $50. @ reel) is now $130. @ reel , still cheaper then 1" or 2" tape. 16 tracks on 1/2" tape is ok for my studio... mostly demo's , but can master.
 
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