I've come to the conclusion that a studio sound is only found in ... a studio

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its a look that suits you :)
Apparently :eek:

Anyways, this is why I turn off the radio, and then surf the web to find stuff like this. Not all of the stuff on that site is good, but there are some great tracks that will never make it to radio, even on the XM channels. And to tie it in with this tread, this is pretty much all home studio production.
 
Apart from all the emotion, this thread is quite interesting to me. Bongolation - would you mind listing some of music you found the most interesting, well-produced, or otherwise worth of putting on heavy global rotation, through your career? I'd love to see if I could hear the differences between what the pros consider good, and all else.

I've learned through the very short time I've been interested in recording that the ears we listen through, and our own brains are probably the most important parts of the recording process (hopefully I'm right about that)

Thanks for your response.
 
Maybe you're just pissy because you are a Former big shot? Honestly, at this point I don't even care... you can take that attitude of yours and shove it up your... you know what. :rolleyes:
You obviously care enough to make a couple stupid rants about it.

Yes, "former": Actually I got out of the business because my mother got cancer and my father got Alzheimer's disease. I spent fifteen years of solid, unremitting hell dealing with that. Music didn't seem that important.

Go ahead, genius, make some jokes about that. :rolleyes:
 
Bongolation - would you mind listing some of music you found the most interesting, well-produced, or otherwise worth of putting on heavy global rotation, through your career? I'd love to see if I could hear the differences between what the pros consider good, and all else.
I won't do that exactly, because as soon as I do, invariably the asshats who are already trying to pick a fight always howl, "Oh, you think that's great? Haw, haw, haw! You're so lame! They SUCK! That chick has fake tits! (or the singer's a junkie, or someone's a homo, or [X genre] blows, or whatever)." :rolleyes:

It always happens.

I will give you a rule, though (one of many I formulated and used), and you can apply it to stuff you hear. I know you'll recognize it and its value when you encounter it and think about past songs that got your attention -- and that's what it's all about.

My broadcast producer used to jokingly call it my "Get to the point or get out of my office" rule.

You have ten to fifteen seconds (maximum) to hook the listener. A good song will do it in as little as two notes. It doesn't matter how you do it, but you have to establish your link with your listener and get his attention.

I'm thinking of two cases at the moment, one a female vocalist with an incredible, evocative voice. In one of her hits, the first two or three ascending notes of her a capella intro consistently stopped people in their tracks. I would watch it in businesses with the radio playing in the background. People who weren't even listening would unconsciously stop talking and turn their ears to the radio, if only for a bit. It had that power.

Another was an alt-hit with a great, rasty bass intro. In two seconds, that just dropped-kicked you in the gut. When it was on the #1 station in the city I was in, I'd watch while at stoplights at major intersections and I could see bored people instantly come alive when it came on after a commercial break and lean over to turn up the volume and started bouncing their heads to the rhythm. It was beautiful.

Think back throughout your life, like driving around aimlessly on a Saturday night when you were seventeen listening to the radio with a bunch of your knucklehead friends and "that" intro came on and everyone in the front seat lunges for the volume control at once. ;)

OK, as an asshat-proof example, what about (as perhaps the greatest example in recorded music) THE CHORD at the beginning of "A Hard Day's Night"?

I don't care who you are, you want that power over a listener's attention.

That's gold. Artistically and financially.

All the snotty little twerps with their homemade shoegazer drone crap would in their hearts of hearts sell ten years of their lives for something like that.

You make songs like that and you'll get heard. You almost can't help it. That's what production and material are supposed to do for you, that moment of perfection, the perfect intro hook.

OK, so you're not quite in that class...but whatever you have, give it up fast before the listener has his resistance up or gets bored and punches the button. "Bite and Hold" was what I called it. Get the listener's attention and build from there, or at least don't let go.

Listeners owe you nothing. You have to make them want to listen to your song. If you don't clinch the sale in the first few seconds, you're toast.

As an addendum, I can assure you that I'm aware that MOST charting broadcast music doesn't do this and is essentially junk in all ways. Listeners listen to it and buy it because the record companies invest hugely in selling it and buying the airtime through direct and indirect payola and endless hype in the trades and fan mags, blah, blah. But a new breakout act that suddenly makes radio sound good usually has this.
 
You obviously care enough to make a couple stupid rants about it.

Yes, "former": Actually I got out of the business because my mother got cancer and my father got Alzheimer's disease. I spent fifteen years of solid, unremitting hell dealing with that. Music didn't seem that important.

Go ahead, genius, make some jokes about that. :rolleyes:


why would anyone make jokes about that?

I would guess that those 15 years have always left something wanting in you...though you obviously had your priorities right, you've been naturally disappointed that your career ended (or was put on hold) hence the attitude

That why you talk and act like Raging Bulls "coulda been a contenda" speech...your issues lie with yourself and not with "kids" on homerecording sites...your avatar title speaks volumes

its good that you can come to these forums and share your reminisced stories and maybe part with some knowledge.

I hope your mother pulled through and if not god rest her soul
 
I don't know who bongolation is, but he's absolutely right about the way the industry works. And his "you've got 10 to 15 seconds to convince a record company" statement is dead on!! So are his comments about the "evil empire" (Clear Channel, and their radio/live shows monopoly).
 
I don't know who bongolation is, but he's absolutely right about the way the industry works. And his "you've got 10 to 15 seconds to convince a record company" statement is dead on!! So are his comments about the "evil empire" (Clear Channel, and their radio/live shows monopoly).

yup but is what's expected is that everyone should strive for that 15 second intro or not? its like the MacDonalds of music..

Most of my favourite songs in the world were the hardest to listen to first...this throwaway crap that's been around since the sixties, but never so predominant, is bite-hold-drop in my music loving opinion, regardless of my recording skills...therefore to achieve this level of production or standard song type is completely negligible...I want this music and its production to die

and that might be the same for the "snotty little twerps with their homemade shoegazer drone crap" as he so eloquently put it

BTW I remember Nirvana hanging out with my friends band in Edinburgh back in the late eighties...they were snotty kids I bet to many back then ...im sure they studied the "Hard Days Night" formula too...nope the music industry studied the Nirvana formula.... for how many years?
 
You have ten to fifteen seconds (maximum) to hook the listener. A good song will do it in as little as two notes. It doesn't matter how you do it, but you have to establish your link with your listener and get his attention.

I agree.
I grew up on Beatles/Motown and all those AM radio “hits”…so the idea of “hook” is always incorporated into my music (though I’m not sure how often I hit the mark :) ).

One thing though, I don’t know why so often when an actual “industry rep” claims to be on an audio/music forum, many choose to speak in a rather “cloaked” manner?
Why is that? :confused:
Yeah, they all say if they reveal who they are there will be all these negative “consequences”…but that often comes off as a dodge.

Is there a music industry “hit squad” (sorry for the pun) that will hunt you down and kill you for revealing some top-top-top secrets of the trade???? :D


I don't care who you are, you want that power over a listener's attention.

That's gold. Artistically and financially.

All the snotty little twerps with their homemade shoegazer drone crap would in their hearts of hearts sell ten years of their lives for something like that.

You make songs like that and you'll get heard. You almost can't help it. That's what production and material are supposed to do for you, that moment of perfection, the perfect intro hook.

:p “shoegazer drone crap”

Yeah, I think a lot of guys assume that because THEY made the music, therefore it must be worthwhile music, even if no one likes it, and when that happens, they will scoff at the “stupid, tasteless” general public for NOT appreciating their lofty efforts.

Mind you, I don’t think music is JUST about MOR Pop/Rock, but YES, if you want to really *sell* then you have to give them what they want or be able to change their minds with something new.
Just pissing and moaning about it and blaming it on “the industry” is IMO not a totally valid argument. Yeah, there is that whole “cookie cutter” approach that “the industry” likes to use when they hit on something good, but the modern music industry has been introducing new styles/genres for the last 60 years, so I think it’s still up to the artist to come up with “better stuff” and present it to the industry.
And isn’t that what the new, anti-label approach is all about? ;)
Making and promoting your music WITHOUT any restraints?
 
...this throwaway crap that's been around since the sixties, but never so predominant, is bite-hold-drop in my music loving opinion...

Can you give some examples?



BTW I remember Nirvana hanging out with my friends band in Edinburgh back in the late eighties...they were snotty kids I bet to many back then ...im sure they studied the "Hard Days Night" formula too...nope the music industry studied the Nirvana formula.... for how many years?

You are so wrong.

Nirvana would not have been possible without all the "throwaway crap" of the '60s. :rolleyes:

And AFA the "Nirvana formula"...it is too was/is just another "cookie cutter" formula, and IMO, one of the ones that brought us a lot of real tastless crap, devoid of any musicianship or intersting composition.
Just so much "Please look at me, I'm a nobody...but I'm special too." kind of music.
 
But if you're a "pro" (whatever the hell that means), you play the percentages. Sure, there are tons of songs that don't follow the "formula", but if you're trying to get heard as a "pop" recording artist, it helps to have some idea of what record companies look for when you send in a demo of your stuff. And that means a strong hook at the front of the song, and a catchy overall sound.

Very often, the first person that you hafta impress at the record company is the receptionist. So yeah, that first 10 or 15 seconds can be very important. And "Don't bore us; get to the chorus" is still true.
 
Can you give some examples?


examples of what? music I think is throw away crap?

my gawd man Id be here for days...from bubble gum pop through manufactured bands through to what passes as R&B nowadays

Radioactivity by Kraftwerk has more bearing or influence for me than any pop crap the Beatles were known for at first...oh yeah that album followed an industry formula too :rolleyes:



You are so wrong.

Nirvana would not have been possible without all the "throwaway crap" of the '60s. :rolleyes:

And AFA the "Nirvana formula"...it is too was/is just another "cookie cutter" formula, and IMO, one of the ones that brought us a lot of real tastless crap, devoid of any musicianship or intersting composition.
Just so much "Please look at me, I'm a nobody...but I'm special too." kind of music.

I completely disagree...the guys I had met were just a little known punk band...grunge rock and all that utter crap that surrounded it were manufactured by the music industry who then tried to each find the next Nirvana..I couldn't care less what your view on the style of music is..they were playing it in 500 people venues before Melody Maker got a hold of the "Seattle" scene

Oh but of course you mean that punk scene wouldn't have existed unless we had the formula...and of course that wouldn't have existed unless we had the beatles..and they wouldnt have existed without elvis...and he would have....mozart...chinese kazoos...ape man.....amoeba...big bang
 
But if you're a "pro" (whatever the hell that means), you play the percentages. Sure, there are tons of songs that don't follow the "formula", but if you're trying to get heard as a "pop" recording artist, it helps to have some idea of what record companies look for when you send in a demo of your stuff. And that means a strong hook at the front of the song, and a catchy overall sound.

Very often, the first person that you hafta impress at the record company is the receptionist. So yeah, that first 10 or 15 seconds can be very important. And "Don't bore us; get to the chorus" is still true.

no ones arguing the 15 second formula..I think what a couple of us are saying is that its the downfall not the saviour of music..


and "pro" seems to be interchangeable with "snob" for many here....funny no other "hobby" I have is like this...surfing, boarding, motorcycling every experienced person Ive met does not expect that my expectations should be to be the next number one unless its expressed to them first..and Ive met two world champions in their fields and raced on the same track with them, they were humble and awesome in equal measures..some here could do with learning a lesson in humility
 
and "pro" seems to be interchangeable with "snob" for many here....funny no other "hobby" I have is like this...surfing, boarding, motorcycling every experienced person Ive met does not expect that my expectations should be to be the next number one unless its expressed to them first..and Ive met two world champions in their fields and raced on the same track with them, they were humble and awesome in equal measures..some here could do with learning a lesson in humility
"Pro" (for me, anyway) means that this is your livelihood, it's a full-time job, and you make your living from it. It's fine as a hobby as well, but don't expect to turn "pro" without understanding some of the ground rules. If you wanna do motorcycling on a real track with "real pros", you might wanna invest in a Ducati rather than a Vespa.

Home recording is fun and should be judged by how much you please yourself; "pro recording" is all about sales to the public.
 
Internet 2.0 Rule #1: The validity of one's opinion is independent of how much they actually know about the subject.

Internet 2.0 Rule #2: In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and the 2-eyed man is vilified.

Look out, folks; Internet 3 is coming fast and is going to bowl the 2.0ers over like a tsunami if they don't head for the high ground soon.

G.
 
"Pro" (for me, anyway) means that this is your livelihood, it's a full-time job, and you make your living from it. It's fine as a hobby as well, but don't expect to turn "pro" without understanding some of the ground rules. If you wanna do motorcycling on a real track with "real pros", you might wanna invest in a Ducati rather than a Vespa.

Home recording is fun and should be judged by how much you please yourself; "pro recording" is all about sales to the public.

exactly...you hit it on the head Harvey


Id always choose a japanese bike over ducati for someone of my level, especially when it comes to reliability..Id never choose a vespa as the brakes and engine are mounted on the same side and there ar obvious ground clearance issue with its "aircraft" wheels...though some shoegazing twerps just dont understand this..hang on they do! ive never seen one on a track :)


btw last time I was out on my 1100cc monster i was totally trounced by two 16 year olds on 125 bikes...they had been racing for a while and attacked every apex, fresh, young, ambitious..I've been riding for 26 years now...they couldn't change the oil on their bikes mind you...that was left for the engineers ;)
 
Internet 2.0 Rule #1: The validity of one's opinion is inversely proportional to how much they actually know about the subject.

Internet 2.0 Rule #2: In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and the 2-eyed man is vilified.

Look out, folks; Internet 3 is coming fast and is going to bowl the 2.0ers over like a tsunami if they don't head for the high ground soon.

G.


yeah that'll be it...and in an as opinionated and subjective field as popular music one mans gold is another mans shit..regardless of how impeccably its recorded or "years" of experience they have...
 
"Pro" (for me, anyway) means that this is your livelihood, it's a full-time job, and you make your living from it. It's fine as a hobby as well, but don't expect to turn "pro" without understanding some of the ground rules. If you wanna do motorcycling on a real track with "real pros", you might wanna invest in a Ducati rather than a Vespa.

Home recording is fun and should be judged by how much you please yourself; "pro recording" is all about sales to the public.

Thats true...I dont love it...I dont get what half the stuff on the radio is nowdays...but as long as people are buying it or paying to have it recorded...its what you have to do sometimes...work is work...and you have to look at it that way.

Like Britney Spears...that girl cant sing a track without going through so many effects its hardly recogniseable to me...I dont get it at all...but would I love the oppertunity to get her into my studio and get that check...YES!!!
 
I was reading an article on an engineer recording Lilly Allens last album...every song went through melodyne...I mean she practically talks through her music..he said he does it with most...

The perfect example for me is bands like Kasabian etc...a single that gets you going...man that is superb...you buy the album..its like five listens to of "this is the freshest ive heard in years"...then never listened to again...a few buy their next album...then no more

crap, is it the fault of their songwriting/musicianship or those who record them?


some of my favourite music has the poorest production values...60s Garage or Northern Soul...can listen to the same tracks, and have, all my life
 
When I was doing broadcast playlisting and format development, I (and about six or eight helpers) determined whether a new recording was good enough to go into national heavy rotation, light rotation or into the landfill forever. :(

Im on a panel like that...but with about 50 others that get together and listen to 10 seconds of 500 songs and vote on what kind of rotation they get for Hearst Broadcasting...we do this once a month and get a $50 check.
 
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