is there a BIG difference between a sbLive and recording card?

[Beltrom]

I was an UFO-Paranoid some years ago...

Now, why am I not surprised.

 

[Beltrom]

humm, what's car's got to do with sound cards???

Haven't you seen their wheels. Everyone seem to think they're capacitors - but I know better - they're definately wheels.

Actually - I don't know why so many in this thread was comparing soundcards to cars - but I felt it was mandatory.

 

[ChristopherM]

Haven't you seen their wheels. Everyone seem to think they're capacitors - but I know better - they're definately wheels.

And the soundcards are definitely safer in Sweden!

 

[drstawl]

hmmm... we need some more input from other experienced users.

especially people that made the jump from a consumer card, to a semi-pro recording card.

oh well, delta 410 is only 110 bucks. that's cheap enough for me.

I've already chimed in! I started out with a SoundBlaster and have had several better cards. I never want to go back to using a SoundBlaster if I can possibly avoid it.

The Turtle Beach that came with my Dell was about the same as a Soundblaster.
DAL Card-D (16-bit ISA card/stereo RCA I/O) Damn Quiet Card but obsolete because of the Bus in which the Card was designed to be used.
Echo GINA-20 (so-called 20-bit card/ 4-in/10-out) Very Nice
Delta 1010 (24/96; 10-in/10-out) not as quiet as the GINA but very nice.

Converter Quality aside- it is very much worth it to have a breakout box for your I/O with a decent connector type.

1/8" Mini-plugs suck!!!! RCA is OK if you don't mind unbalanced (and I usually use unbalanced TS in the Delta 1010 and the GINA)
1/4" TRS and XLR are the way to do it.

 

[drstawl]

Deh eh ih oh uh!

I have not understood nothing! It was better before. Task that we two will not be never understood!

(Google italian/english translator seems to work better than english/italian )

Hello to the next one!

MaxB

I ran it through the reverse translator and it was very funny!

Let me see if I can make this easy.

You say that more than two channels of sound are not needed.

The whole idea of multi-tracking is to record more than 2 sources of sound and keep them separate. When you play back the files in a multitracker (Vegas/Cubase/CW/Logic/Cool Edit/N-track (Yay Italy!) you have the option of mixing the instruments at levels that are different from when you recorded them. If you mix down when you are recording you are stuck with what you have.

 

[MaxB]

1/8" Mini-plugs suck!!!! RCA is OK if you don't mind unbalanced (and I usually use unbalanced TS in the Delta 1010 and the GINA)
1/4" TRS and XLR are the way to do it.

I would like to hear an example. Can you post an example of a recording where you have used 1/8" mini plugs and one with TRS and XLR? I don't want to be provocative. I'm serious. I was an UFO-Paranoid but also an audio paranoid (Beltrom, don't be surprised). Then I have downloaded an AVI file that shows Vangelis during the China Album recording (70-80's). You can see Vangelis plug a 1/8" mini jack into one of his synthsizers. Well, the album It's perfect and you can't say "here the used a 1/8" mini jack". What I'm trying to say is that if they used to do good albums back in the '70's with limited equipment, why we can't do the same now today??

The benefits are for real or it's only useless perfectionism?


MaxB

 

[MaxB]

Originally posted by drstawl
I ran it through the reverse translator and it was very funny!

Let me see if I can make this easy.
You say that more than two channels of sound are not needed.

No. If you re-read the whole thread you can understand very well what I'm saying. I'm trying to say that in a Home Studio you don't need more than two channels, because It's a Home Studio... so you don't need to have 4 separate tracks of your acoustic guitar to work with, because it's an Home Studio, and the result will be an Home Studio Recording session. This is what I've wrote to ChristopherM:

Originally posted by MaxB: Why you want to record 4 tracks at once??

Uh...to get a decent take on an acoustic guitar? Hmm... Mic a drumset?

What? Do you want to record the hihat, toms, vocals, backing vocals, ocarina, berimbau, etc, everyone on a different track?? Well use a multitrack-tape recorder, not your cheap Delta soundcard.

Ok, if you want to multitrack an acoustic guitar in your home studio you can do it. But for me it's only a waste of time.
It's a waste of time if you consider that the whole thing will be mixed into a virtual mixer (nuendo, cubase, cep, etc) where you have to deal with latency, invisible interface, not so good plug-ins.
For a musician the Home Studio must be a "Sketch Studio" not a "Pro-Studio Wannabe" or "Virtual Sound Engineer Studio".

Yes, I know there are great engineers that works in their "home studios" but they are not using a Delta... It's a pro-studio with an home all around. A Studio Home

MaxB

 

[Beltrom]

What I'm trying to say is that if they used to do good albums back in the '70's with limited equipment, why we can't do the same now today??
The benefits are for real or it's only useless perfectionism?

Very true. Using the Live probably will have a very small impact on the music you make - and perhaps not even a negative one. In functions the sb's might even have more to offer than f e the Audiophile (that's not always a good thing neither technically nor creatively - but that's another discussion). But I think most of us strive for the best sonic quality we can - we want to get as close to professional as we can. There's lots of different reasons for this - not all apply to me. Having nice tools makes it easier.

But in this thread this haven't been how I've seen your line of reasoning. Back to the cars - you haven't said "I might as well use a beetle, it will at least take me where I want" - you have said "My beetle is faster than all your cars."

If I understood the discussion correctly (I quickly got bored) you even claimed to have changed the engine to achieve this, whereon some people here questioned if it was even possible to attach such an engine succesfully on a beetle.

 

[drstawl]

The ones with 1/8" mostly got erased because they always had some problems.

 

[Beltrom]

I'm trying to say that in a Home Studio you don't need more than two channels, because It's a Home Studio...

Why are you telling me what I need in my home studio? I've had several friends bands here that wanted to record directly and I would have loved to be able to separate everything. Even when working myself & family it helps. Of course need is a strong word. Basically you could get by with a Sony walkman and a cheap mic.
Where do you want to stop?

For a musician the Home Studio must be a "Sketch Studio" not a "Pro-Studio Wannabe" or "Virtual Sound Engineer Studio".

This is not true for all kinds of music. Again you're extrapolating (is this a word in english?) too much from your own situation.

 

[MaxB]

I think most of us strive for the best sonic quality we can - we want to get as close to professional as we can. There's lots of different reasons for this - not all apply to me. Having nice tools makes it easier.

Ok ok. I agree having nice tools makes it easier. But the first question of this never ending thread was if there is a big difference between a SBLive and "recording card" (someone start to talk about Delta, etc.). And my answer was and still is no. Because I think that a Delta is not better than a SBLive. Yes probably it is built with better components, but is not better than the Live!.

If I understood the discussion correctly (I quickly got bored) you even claimed to have changed the engine to achieve this, whereon some people here questioned if it was even possible to attach such an engine succesfully on a beetle.

Duh?
No, I don't have claimed this... I think.
I said I'm using the KXDrivers instead of the Creative ones.
These drivers (KX) give to the user total control through the EMU10k chip (SBLive! - Audigy1 "engine"). You can control everything with KXDrivers. I have found that using a gate plugin (KX Plugin) in the line in you can have a -130db level to noise.
That's all.

MaxB

 

[Beltrom]

Well, maybe I got a bit overboard on my metaphors...

 

[Scottgman]

hmmm... we need some more input from other experienced users.

especially people that made the jump from a consumer card, to a semi-pro recording card.

Hey man, I just went from a SB to an M-Audio card last spring. It's been less than a year since I was in your position. I couldn't get a good recorded sound using a SB. Some might argue that I'm a poor recording engineer and I wouldn't deny that. But then I bought an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and was flat-out blown away!

My recordings on the SB didn't sound any better than recordings I made on my old cheap Fostex 4-track tape recorder. The tracks I began recording with the Audiophile sounded like they came from a pro studio in comparison to the SB recordings.

All I can say about the transition from SoundBlaster to M-Audio is WOW! I listened to your recording-- frankly I had to stop it about halfway through because it sounded so bad-- and I promise you will say WOW if you record the same song with an M-Audio card.

I've since sold the 2496 and bought a Delta 10/10 for the extra inputs so I can record drums. Listen to "Guitar Demo" for a small sample of some guitar and drums I recorded this weekend using my M-Audio soundcard, some MXL mics (also an ATM-25 on the kick, and sm57 on snare), and a Mackie mixer. I'm not claiming this is a "great" recording, but it is infinitely better than anything I recorded with a SoundBlaster.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3498&alid=-1

P.S. I'm not knocking SoundBlasters, I've heard some respectable recordings made with them. But unless you are an extremely talented recording engineer, you will have much better results with an M-Audio card.

 

[theshaggyfreak]

I tried recording with a SB Live when I first started. The primary issue I had with it was latency. The drivers were crap and couldn't handle what I was trying to do. Sure, you can use a SBlive for recording, but it surely isn't made to do so. You'll easilly reach it's limitations if you try. So, I first got the ol' Lexicon Core2, but that didn't last too long since they dropped support for it. I moved on to the Audiophile 2496, and I've been with it since.

My advise:
If you just playing on tooling around and not taking it too seriously, the sound blaster card will work fine for you. If you plan on doing some quality work, buy a card that's made to do the job. You'll have less of a headache trying in the end. Why would you want to limit yourself from the get go? Give yourself some creative room to move around!

 

[Bulls Hit]

I would like to hear an example. Can you post an example of a recording where you have used 1/8" mini plugs and one with TRS and XLR?
MaxB

OK here you go.
http://www.nowhereradio.com/nowhereradio/singles


The Manson cover (Beautiful People) was recorded on my Yamaha XG thru a 1/8" jack. All the drums were on one track, guitar on another track etc.

The Zeppelin cover (Dancing Days) was recorded on my Delta 44 using unbalanced 1/4" jacks. The snare, kick & overhead were recorded to seperate tracks.

To me anyway, the quality of the Delta 44 recording is noticebaly superior. Both mp3s are encoded at 128kbps

 

[RichHead]

is there a large audible difference that even a non-musician, non-recorder could notice? is there actually a sound quality difference? or is it just "a little" better.

thanks

Wow, this thing is out of control. Jotosuds. First off I AM NOT A PRO, and don't want to be. Listen:

Playing around one day on my SBLive card, I started recording some guitar and vocals. I loved it, and recording got me excited.

Then I took a jump to a better mic (SP C1). Hey, where's that noise coming from? This is a powered condenser mic, and it was very evident that I was not going to be happy with level of noise going on (even in a COMPLETELY quiet room). So after many, many hours of reading, searching, and listening, I bought a Delta1010lt. I got it from Sam Ash for $180 brand new, it was a hell of a deal. I stuck that thing in there, recorded a couple of tracks. Then I threw away everything I had done to date (which wasn't much anyway). Everything......

Even my wife, who is tone deaf, said "wow that sounds pretty good". Still, I have a long way to go to get to where I want to be. And now my room is a bigger problem than any hardware I have. But that is neither here nor there.

The answer I believe is, if you are trying to make something listenable for the average person, yes, the soundcard can make a difference. I went from my wife patting me on the head saying "thats nice honey", to "that sounds good honey".....lol. Hey I gotta start somewhere. But it isn't just the soundcard either, its also me. I'm trying to get better. I'm reading everything I can. Do enough reading, you will find a lot of people using entry level equipment. I think this Delta card can take care of me for some time to come, the SBLive was a quickly passing phase. But I got to tell ya, it was fun hearing the first stuff you record no matter the card.

On a side note, many of my games don't like the Delta 1010lt. So while the SBLive DID leave, I still use my onboard sound for most of my games. It just works better. The Delta 1010 is not very versatile from any respect other than recording/playback.

Hope that help.

 

[MaxB]

Re: Re: is there a BIG difference between a sbLive and recording card?

Wow, this thing is out of control. Jotosuds. First off I AM NOT A PRO, and don't want to be. Listen:

Playing around one day on my SBLive card, I started recording some guitar and vocals. I loved it, and recording got me excited.

Then I took a jump to a better mic (SP C1). Hey, where's that noise coming from? This is a powered condenser mic, and it was very evident that I was not going to be happy with level of noise going on (even in a COMPLETELY quiet room).

SBLive! + KXDriver + Noise Gate = -130dB noise level...

 

[MaxB]

http://web.infinito.it/utenti/r/riptide/96k 32bit.htm

This is a SBLive! with KXDrivers. I have used a KXPlugin as noise gate.

 

[christiaan]

Noise levels... fine... But you STILL end up with only 16 bits of resolution....
130db devided over 65536 steps... Quite large steps!

 

[gordone]

Re: Re: Re: is there a BIG difference between a sbLive and recording card?

You keep throwing this noise gate into the equation. A noise gate only helps when there is no source signal playing. It can't do anything when the sound source is playing. If there is noise going on while your synth/guitar/whatever is still playing, a noise gate can't do anything for you, so work on getting rid of the noise at the source (or on the soundcard).

Also, as others have pointed out, there's ALOT more to the quality of the A/D conversion than just noise level, so just throwing out this useless spec shows your ignorance in this subject.

PS - I did listen to your orchestral recordings, it wasn't too bad, but I think you would notice a big difference with a better 24-bit soundcard. I think the point we should all take home is that a SB will get you decent results, especially for someone just starting out, BUT you will get better sonics with a better soundcard!

SBLive! + KXDriver + Noise Gate = -130dB noise level...