Is a mic preamp worth it?

  • Thread starter Thread starter adriannav
  • Start date Start date
I'm not trying to take away from Ethan's audio rep....I've known him on the web for many years now, across a few audio forums...and I've recommended his Real Traps to people.

I was just making the point that reducing quality products to generic, raw components can be done with everything...and when viewed only as raw components, you can make most products appear to be....nothing special.

Nobody is saying that high end pre amps or other products are not "special". I and others have mentioned many of the desirable qualities that make such things an pleasure to own and use.
A bach partita is just a bunch of notes. We(!) are just bags of water and a few pounds of other chemicals. A Strad is "just" wood but nobody really knows why they are so good and no two are the same. Heck! No two valve guitar amps sound EXACTLY the same! But! Every Grace M101 is the same as every other M101 if it weren't it would not BE an M101!

(STILL no "mechanism" for top line pre amps? Still no .wav clips.)


Dave.
 
Bobbsy and Dave explained it perfectly, so there's no need for me to elaborate. But to address your specific question above, my point was that when "believers" are unable to provide a specific answer, they try to snow you with endless and usually irrelevant techno-babble. If they had an answer they'd be able to state it in a few sentences. But they don't, so instead they give you a homework assignment that nobody in their right mind would waste 20 hours pursuing.

BTW, the video Bobbsy referred to is here:

AES Audio Myths Workshop

--Ethan

Thanks, for sharing the video., got alot out of that.
 
Nobody is saying that high end pre amps or other products are not "special".


Well...then you guys need to sort it out then as to what you really ARE trying to say! :D

There is nothing magical about a microphone pre amp. You can make a state of art pre for a component cost of less than $50.

Ding ding ding! Give this man a ceegar.


Yes, and "or similar" can be had for 50 cents with a couple of diodes and resistors to add distortion similar to "iron" and "toobs."
 
Well...then you guys need to sort it out then as to what you really ARE trying to say! :D

The OP asked the question "Is a mic pre amp worth it?"

The short answer is "Yes!" IF he can afford the likes of DAV, Neve or Grace(I myself quite fancy a Mico!) he will be buying a device that will give him decades of use and he can be safe in the knowledge that he has a first class component in his recording chain...BUT! That chain starts with the room, the mic, pre and converters plus of course skill and experience.

The OP has an $89 bottom feeder AI, for that money no part of it is going to be excellent! But if he spent double that amount he could get a Focusrite, a Steinberg UR22 and just about.....wait for it! An NI KA6. The pre amps in these three products will be virtually indistinguishable from the top shelf unit...UNLESS of course you want to record a flea's fart at 10 mtrs with an SM7b!

And yet the component cost in those AI pres is peanuts.

Dave.
 
The OP asked the question "Is a mic pre amp worth it?"

The short answer is "Yes!" IF he can afford the likes of DAV, Neve or Grace(I myself quite fancy a Mico!) he will be buying a device that will give him decades of use and he can be safe in the knowledge that he has a first class component in his recording chain...BUT! That chain starts with the room, the mic, pre and converters plus of course skill and experience.

The OP has an $89 bottom feeder AI, for that money no part of it is going to be excellent! But if he spent double that amount he could get a Focusrite, a Steinberg UR22 and just about.....wait for it! An NI KA6. The pre amps in these three products will be virtually indistinguishable from the top shelf unit...UNLESS of course you want to record a flea's fart at 10 mtrs with an SM7b!

And yet the component cost in those AI pres is peanuts.

Dave.

But IS it worth it if he's using a basic mic in an untreated room? There are better ways to spend his money than to buy a stellar pre amp when everything else is entry level stuff.

Edited to add: if somebody can't be talked into skipping a pre amp, then I'd add the FMC RNP98380 to ecc's list. Not quite as horrendously expensive as some of the Neve or Grace stuff (though not cheap) but it does do a good job. You just have to ignore the jokey name (RNP stands for "Really Nice Preamp". Yuck).
 
But IS it worth it if he's using a basic mic in an untreated room? There are better ways to spend his money than to buy a stellar pre amp when everything else is entry level stuff.

Edited to add: if somebody can't be talked into skipping a pre amp, then I'd add the FMC RNP98380 to ecc's list. Not quite as horrendously expensive as some of the Neve or Grace stuff (though not cheap) but it does do a good job. You just have to ignore the jokey name (RNP stands for "Really Nice Preamp". Yuck).

Thought I covered that after "BUT!" ?
But yes Bobbs, we don't hear about the RNP so much these days? BTW part of the moderately high cost of that pre amp is the sophisticated CPU controlled power supply. Can't see the benefit myself but obviously the designers could!

Dave.
 
...BUT! That chain starts with the room, the mic, pre and converters plus of course skill and experience.

Yes...the whole chain should be considered, and in a perfect world you would build "from the ground up"...but how many of us have really done that? Instead, it's sometimes a random "sprawl"...sometimes a required upgrade....sometimes just a spontaneous splurge...sometimes an item just comes up, and the price is right (I've bought way too many things because the price was right and for no other reason). :D

I've found that one decent upgrade (whatever it is) leads to another...and another...and another....and it's something that evolves over time.
So I wouldn't quickly kill-off someone's desire to upgrade a mic pre....by instead telling them they have shitty mics, so they need to first upgrade them...I mean....they would ultimately want both, so get one, then the other....whatever, just move forward. :)
As long as there is a serious desire to be involved with recording and to stick with it for the long haul....it's a constant, multi-directional upgrade path.
 
:D

are these the same folks that keep asking the question "why doesn't my song sound like the pros?"

No, these are the people that argue just to argue without ever actually saying anything.


I tend to generally agree with the "it doesn't matter" camp. I'm not knocking good gear because it does tend to be more reliable and trustworthy. That's about it though. I think all of these internet experts are missing the bigger picture, as they tend to do in their neverending quest to be right. All that matters is the source sound and the result to me. Cheap pre, expensive pre, woopdy fucking do. All that matters is the sound you get. I think that if you're satisfied with the results of a cheap USB mic, then fucking rock on. That's the perfect setup for you. All mics and preamps are right and wrong all at the same time. Is an R121 better on a guitar cab than a 57? It's way more expensive, so it must be better, right? Nope. Not if the 57 gives you the sound you want. Fucking elitists. :laughings:

If you need a 2 million dollar pre to get your sound right, then that's the pre for you.
 
The only thing worse than a know-it-all expert is a sneering, cynical know-it-all expert.
 
none of it really matters to me, ultimately..
because i'm too poor to afford what i want!
LOL

and never will...


so i'll keep making my recordings with what i have, milking every atom of goodness out of it..

but i also will not have any delusions about it.
 
From a non pro, I think the comment here would be right. If I buy a $1000 mic and then think because it's a perfect mic it should do everything from vocals to recording me farting on a snare drum I'm expecting too much. As long as the gear is not flawed (makes massive amount of crackles or pops or whatever) there is probably a situation where you can't tell it from something else. I think the trick is to have the variety of gear so when the situation comes up, you have something that sounds perfect for that situation. Most of us home recording guys are trying to get buy on whatever we can afford. A few mics, maybe 1 or two different preamps and the rest plugins. When we finally but that really expensive piece of gear we expect it to be perfect for everything.

From my limited experience I do think that as the price of my gear goes up, the situations it sounds good in seem to go up with it. Where my $100 mic sounds good on my acoustic guitar, close mic'd, without much room noise. My $600 mic sounds good on that same guitar, close mic'd and farther away. Also it sounds better on my vocal than the other mic.



There's probably a big mix of reasons.

First off, yes, wishful thinking comes into it. Unless your mic (or pre amp or mixer or whatever) comparison is done as a blind test then the results are suspect. Even professional engineers are easily led to think a more expensive piece of gear sounds better. Ethan's excellent video of an AES presentation he organised goes into the detail of this and how an audio placebo effect is very real.

However, beyond that, there are lots of other reasons that may affect things. In no particular order:

The guys using the $1000 mic probably also have a studio with the acoustics designed professionally (and a lot of money spent). Studio acoustics make a huge difference to the final sound, certainly at least as much as the mic and pre amp and possibly more. This is why performers with the money to spend are know to fly thousands of miles to get a studio with a "sound" they like.

The expensive mics and pre amps aren't necessarily more accurate or clear than the cheap ones. In fact, they are often designed to add a specific colouration to the sound--but a colouration that's pleasing to the ear, at least on certain sources. Colouration is actually a form of distortion--but, just as a distorted electric guitar can sound great, so can a vocal mic/pre amp with the "right" colouration for a certain voice.

Following on directly from the above point, pro studios don't try to make a specific mic/pre amp combination do everything. They have a cupboard full of gear and can bring out the mic and pre amp they think is best for the job. Contrast this to the home studio who has to struggle to buy a single really good mic then wants to use it for everything.

Finally, don't underestimate the effect the experience and talent of the engineer can have on the quality.

This is not to say there aren't differences. If there weren't, the pro studios would be just as bad as the audiophools who think a $39,000 speaker cable improves their sound. However, there certainly is a law of diminishing returns on gear--you have to spend a lot more to get a fairly subtle difference--and, as ecc83 says, even then the basic internals may be the same with the differences in the ancillary parts of the circuit.
 
But Ethan....you're always handing out homework assignments, links, graphs and math that would require 20 hours to pursue....in defense of your own views. :D

Not really. I do often link to my own articles and videos, but they're short and to the point, and they directly address the issue at hand. Further, I always answer questions with clear logical answers, and offer the articles and videos for further study. I never ever tell someone nonsense like "you won't understand until you've been a pro engineer for many years" or "read this and then you'll get it" as people often say to me as their only response.

how would you feel if someone said to you that Real Traps in their component state are just paper, plastic, and metal, wrapped around some fiberglass...and they aren't worth more than $20-$30 as raw material. ;)

As of 2012 our cost for one MiniTrap was $96.79 which includes the raw materials, and labor for assembly and packing, plus the cost of the shipping box itself and custom molded foam interior packing which is not inconsequential. It's slightly higher today. The powder coated metal frames and rear mounting bar alone cost us more than $40. We use genuine Owens-Corning double-density rigid fiberglass, which costs about five times more than the cheap crumbly mineral wool many companies use in their cheap knock-offs. The $97 does not include the cost of rent, heat, insurance, and taxes, just the product itself.

I believe this cost-to-sell-price ratio is standard, though companies whose products are built in China earn substantially more. Years ago I spoke with the owner of sE, and he bragged to me that he paid $85 for a microphone that sells for $1,000. For his $85 he gets the microphone, a shock mount, a velvet bag, a 20-foot microphone cable, a fancy wood box, and it comes all assembled and packed nicely in a cardboard shipping box. His company does literally nothing further for their 1,176 percent markup other than shipping out the boxes and billing the customers.

You have this tendency to constantly take shots at high-end audio products and reduce them all down to $0.50 components....though you avoid actually naming brands. :rolleyes:

Well I did now just name a brand. :D

I do not object to fair prices for real value. As others explained, a prosumer DI box that sells for $30 is likely not made as well as a professional model that costs $200. I made the point in my Audio Myths video linked above that real studios pay more for reliability, when sessions can cost thousands of dollars for just the musicians. I don't buy cheap junk personally, and I don't suggest others do either unless that's all they can afford. Which is the case for a lot of people!

However, I do object when products cost ten times more than necessary, especially when they are sold based on unrealistic promises. Analog summing boxes come to mind. I can't for the life of me imagine what someone could put into a preamp to make it worth $1,500 per channel. Even more so for microphones costing $3,000 and up which is not uncommon. $200? Sure! $500? Okay. $1,000? Eh, maybe. But it better be very good, and have multiple patterns and be built like a tank etc to offer real value.

Now, before you accuse me of being the "value police," I'll add that I don't care what people spend on their audio gear. The only time I object is when someone with a limited budget asks what they should buy for good results, and some arrogant gear snob tells them they'll never get professional results unless they spend a grand per channel on mic pres and converters.

--Ethan
 
Now, before you accuse me of being the "value police," I'll add that I don't care what people spend on their audio gear. The only time I object is when someone with a limited budget asks what they should buy for good results, and some arrogant gear snob tells then they'll never get professional results unless they spend a grand per channel on mic pres and converters.

I am a very frugal SOB....so value-to-price is always on my mind, but I will drop the extra cash on things that warrant it.
You're objections to some manufacturers charging nose-bleed prices for gear that should sell 10 times less, or for making pure snake oil claims...are spot on. It's just that you also have a tendency to reduce even reasonably priced high-end gear to its "50 cent components"...and I think when you do that you are oversimplifying only for effect and not being fair, because as you now said in your last post, there's the issue of reliability, not to mention, build quality for the long-term, pro features, the design/manufacturing process, etc, etc...so by not mentioning all that and just talking about the "50 cent components" of high-end gear, it isn't really a fair way to view/present good gear that is sold at appropriate prices...
...plus you often make it sound like anyone that does drop $1000 on a mic or preamp is foolish for doing so…though you say that you buy quality gear. Quality often comes at a higher price :)

My best mic cost me $1100 (normal street price was about $1600)...it's an ADK TT multi-pattern, dual-diaphragm tube mic that sounds at least 5 times better than most of my other mics, and at least 10 times better than my cheapest mics. I still use the cheaper mics regularly...but I know where/why the money went on the ADK TT. I also have some $200 ADK mics....good , but certainly not the TT.
I've had people in the studio use the TT and they love the sound, and ask how much it cost. I tell them about $1000, and they all say "that figures" and they grin...so people do notice a difference in higher-end VS. lower-end....and I bet both my TT and the cheaper ADK mics have some of the same 50 cent components, but there is an obvious quality difference between the two mics.

AFA what home-rec newbs buy…well, some may need educating so they don’t waste their money, but some really could benefit from getting something better/higher-end/more expensive. We shouldn’t talk them down off the high-end ladder by simply reducing most high-end gear to "50 cent components". :rolleyes:
 
AFA what home-rec newbs buy…well, some may need educating so they don’t waste their money, but some really could benefit from getting something better/higher-end/more expensive. We shouldn’t talk them down off the high-end ladder by simply reducing most high-end gear to 50 cent components. :rolleyes:
What they could benefit from is some Real Traps!
 
It's just that you also have a tendency to reduce even reasonably priced high-end gear to its "50 cent components"...and I think when you do that you are oversimplifying only for effect and not being fair

Can you link to a post where I did that unfairly?

you often make it sound like anyone that does drop $1000 on a mic or preamp is foolish for doing so…though you say that you buy quality gear. Quality often comes at a higher price :)

I said "per channel," though I do think that $1,000 even for two channels is not a good value. Again, if the vendors didn't use audiophile BS to justify their high prices I'd object less. If it's built better, and has better features such as a stepped gain control and more output headroom, then sell based on that. Too often I see gear vendors speak out of both sides of their mouths, saying at the same time that their [whatever] is totally transparent, then saying it has a pleasing character unmatched by other products.

My best mic cost me $1100 (normal street price was about $1600)...it's an ADK TT multi-pattern, dual-diaphragm tube mic that sounds at least 5 times better than most of my other mics

"best" and "sounds at least 5 times better" are subjective, especially when you know what you're hearing. If you lived near me I'd have you over for a blind comparison of a few different mics. :eek:

--Ethan
 
You still avoid saying what it is in a $500 pre amp that makes it sound "better" than a well designed $50 one?

.
count me in. I'm fully qualified to build something so point me to a 'styate of the art' pre kit or schematics that I can build for 50 bucks worth of parts and I'll build one. Then we can run some tests right here at HR.
I need a few decent pres but I literally sometimes don't have food money so i'm broke as any of these young newbs.

I would be in your debt if you can point me in that direction.
PM me if you don't want it to get argued over or just put the info in this thread if you don't care.
BTW .. I do believe you when you say it can be done so help me do it.
 
Back
Top